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	<title>AAPSS Blog</title>
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	<modified>2010-03-02T04:11:17Z</modified>
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	<entry>
		<title>The End of Television? </title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="http://blog.aapss.org/index.cfm?CommentID=97" />
		<modified>2010-03-02T04:11:17Z</modified>
		<issued>2010-03-02T12:00:00Z</issued>
 		<id>tag:blog.aapss.org,2010:97</id> 
		<created>2010-03-02T12:00:00Z</created>
		<summary type="text/plain"><![CDATA[                                	Is television dead? The classic television era of the 1950s and]]></summary>
		<author>
			<name>AAPSS Blog</name>
			<url>http://blog.aapss.org/</url>
			<email>jodland@sas.upenn.edu</email>
		</author>
			
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            <td align="center"><img width="200" height="280" src="/Image/EKatz.jpg" alt="Elihu Katz" class="authorphoto" /><br/><strong>Elihu Katz</strong></td>
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<p>Is television dead? The classic television era of the 1950s and 1960s, characterized by limited choices of programs broadcast on over-the-air channels to families as if they were seated around a hearth, has given way to a new era. Now, satellite, cable and new technologies offer a multitude of choices for viewing what we like; when we like; where we like; on a variety of screens, telephones, and websites. </p>

<p>On February 19, 2010, scholars gathered at the Annenberg School for Communication to discuss the overreaching sociological impacts of television over the past 60 years and the way it has impacted our values, ideologies, institutions, social structure, and culture. </p>

<p>The symposium was led by Elihu Katz and Paddy Scannell, co-editors of a volume of The Annals titled The End of Television? Its Impacts on the World (So Far). The volume examined the effects on family and politics, on values and everyday behavior, as well as on democracy, social integration, trust and suspiciousness, materialism, and social and physical identity.</p>

<p>Joining in the discussion were Michael Schudson, Daniel Dayan, Marwan Kraidy, Joseph Turow, and Graeme Turner.</p>

<p><strong>Session 1</strong><br>

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<td valign="top" width="115" class="divide"><strong>1. Elihu Katz</strong></td>
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<td valign="top" width="115" class="divide"><strong>2. Joseph Turow</strong></td>
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<td valign="top" width="115" class="divide"><strong>5.	Q and A</strong></td>
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</p>

<p><strong>Session 2</strong><br>

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<td valign="top" width="115" class="divide"><strong>6.	Paddy Scannell</strong></td>
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<td valign="top" width="115" class="divide"><strong>7.	Daniel Dayan</strong></td>
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<td valign="top" width="115" class="divide"><strong>8.	Michael Schudson</strong></td>
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<td valign="top" width="115" class="divide"><strong>9.	Q and A</strong></td>
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	</entry>
 

	<entry>
		<title>2009 Moynihan Prize presented to David Ellwood at Newseum Ceremony</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="http://blog.aapss.org/index.cfm?CommentID=78" />
		<modified>2010-03-02T04:11:17Z</modified>
		<issued>2009-05-28T02:10:40Z</issued>
 		<id>tag:blog.aapss.org,2010:78</id> 
		<created>2009-05-28T02:10:40Z</created>
		<summary type="text/plain"><![CDATA[                                     Go to Fullsize Slideshow                                       ]]></summary>
		<author>
			<name>AAPSS Blog</name>
			<url>http://blog.aapss.org/</url>
			<email>jodland@sas.upenn.edu</email>
		</author>
			
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            <div style="text-align: left;"> <font size="2"><a target="_blank" href="http://www.aapss.org/section.cfm/5/27/1339">Go to Fullsize Slideshow</a></font> <br /></div>
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<p>  The 2009 <a href="javascript:void(0);/*1243531094797*/">Daniel Patrick Moynihan Prize</a> was presented to David Ellwood, Dean of the Harvard Kennedy School, at a dinner ceremony at the Newseum in Washington, DC on May 7, 2009.&amp;nbsp; The $20,000 Moynihan Prize was created by the <a href="javascript:void(0);/*1243531119353*/">American Academy of Political and Social Science</a> to recognize public officials and scholars who champion the use of informed judgment to improve public policy.&amp;nbsp; David Ellwood, who served as Assistant Secretary for Planning and Evaluation at the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services from 1993-95, is one of the nation&amp;rsquo;s leading scholars on poverty and welfare. </p>
<p>The 2009 Moynihan Prize was presented by Lawrence O&amp;rsquo;Donnell, Jr., senior political analyst for MSNBC, who served as a senior adviser to Senator Moynihan.&amp;nbsp; &amp;ldquo;I have been asked countless times in the last few years what would Senator Moynihan think about this or that issue of the day,&amp;rdquo; O&amp;rsquo;Donnell noted.&amp;nbsp; &amp;ldquo;I always say I don&amp;rsquo;t know.&amp;nbsp; Even when I have a very good feel for what his angle on the issue would be, I say I don&amp;rsquo;t know &amp;hellip; because, at best, I could only tell you 50 percent of what he would think or maybe 80 or 90 if it was a simple issue.&amp;nbsp; But that final 10 or 20 percent, that surprising, often counterintuitive, thing that would make it a Moynihan idea?&amp;nbsp; Well, for that, you could only ask the man himself.&amp;nbsp; So, in the years that I haven&amp;rsquo;t been able to check with him first, I have never spoken for him.&amp;nbsp; Until now.</p>
<p>&amp;ldquo;I can tell you with absolute certainty that if he could be here tonight, Pat Moynihan would be honored to say the following words himself:<br />&amp;ldquo;For his distinguished record of scholarship, public service and strengthening the quality of government leadership, David T. Ellwood is presented the 2009 Daniel Patrick Moynihan Prize of the American Academy of Political and Social Science.&amp;rdquo;</p>
<p>To read or listen to the remarks delivered by Lawrence O'Donnell and William Julius Wilson, click on the photos below.</p>
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            <td><a href="http://blog.aapss.org/index.cfm?commentID=89"><img width="100" height="150" border="1" src="Image/AA390.jpg" alt="Lawrence O'Donnell" /></a></td>
            <td><a href="http://blog.aapss.org/index.cfm?commentID=91"><img width="100" height="150" border="1" src="Image/AA386.jpg" alt="William Julius Wilson" /></a></td>
            <td><a href="http://blog.aapss.org/index.cfm?commentID=90"><img width="225" height="150" border="1" src="Image/Ellwood.jpg" alt="David Ellwood" /></a></td>
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            <td><a href="http://blog.aapss.org/index.cfm?commentID=89"><font size="2" align="center">Lawrence O'Donnell</font></a></td>
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            <td><a href="http://blog.aapss.org/index.cfm?commentID=90"><font size="2" align="center">David Ellwood</font></a></td>
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<p>[pagebreak]Also speaking at the Moynihan Prize ceremony was William Julius Wilson, Lewis P. and Linda L. Geyser University Professor at Harvard University.&amp;nbsp; Wilson spoke about Moynihan&amp;rsquo;s major contributions to social science and described him as &amp;ldquo;bold and controversial&amp;hellip;but the controversy was productive. This man&amp;rsquo;s work was agenda setting.&amp;nbsp; I am so pleased that he is finally getting the full recognition that he deserves.&amp;rdquo; </p>
<p> In accepting the Prize, Dean Ellwood spoke about the importance of encouraging more social and political scientists to work to influence public policy. &amp;ldquo;Something we are not very good at but we really need to be much better at,&amp;rdquo; he said, is thinking about &amp;ldquo;implementation, what works.&amp;nbsp; When do policies actually successfully get implemented?&amp;rdquo; He added that in academia there is a need to reward the policy fruits of intellectual labor. &amp;ldquo;To say, not only do we admire you if you have had an impact on ideas, but maybe if those ideas have had an impact on the world,&amp;rdquo; he stated.&amp;nbsp; </p>...]]>
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	<entry>
		<title>David Ellwood: â¬SWe have to find a way to reward ideas that have had an impact on the worldâ¬ý</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="http://blog.aapss.org/index.cfm?CommentID=90" />
		<modified>2010-03-02T04:11:17Z</modified>
		<issued>2009-05-26T12:00:00Z</issued>
 		<id>tag:blog.aapss.org,2010:90</id> 
		<created>2009-05-26T12:00:00Z</created>
		<summary type="text/plain"><![CDATA[                                                       Download: Right-click and Save As Podcast]]></summary>
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            <td><span style="font-weight: bold;">  Download:</span><br /> <a href="http://www.aapss.org/uploads/ellwood0507.mp3">Right-click and Save As Podcast (MP3)</a><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"> Listen Now:</span><br /> </td>
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<p>&amp;quot;Daniel Patrick Moynihan represented, to my eyes, the best in public service. I think of Daniel Patrick Moynihan as a magnificent thinker, larger than life.  He was a man of both deep intellectual thought and principled action, a combination that is altogether too rare.  I admired him intensely.&amp;quot;</p>
<p>&amp;quot;I first met Daniel Patrick Moynihan in about 1980 and I had just read The Moynihan Report in a serious way for the first time. I was a young, new assistant professor and he came to visit the Kennedy School. I went up to him in a little social gathering and said, 'Your Moynihan Report was visionary. It was terrific; I just thought it was so impressive.'  He looked at me &amp;ndash; I had a beard and kind of long hair &amp;ndash; and through clenched teeth he said, 'It took me ten years to get over that report,' and he turned away.  Yet five years later he came back to the school and gave one of our most prestigious lectures, using the occasion to once again talk about family structure and the re-emergence of that critical set of issues.  We see that report is one of the great visionary reports of all time, as William Julius Wilson just mentioned.  It was classic Moynihan. It pulled together little bits and pieces of evidence and came to a startling conclusion.  And it was not just a report.  It was designed to spur action by the President to take on these challenges.&amp;quot;[pagebreak]  </p>
<p>&amp;quot;I subsequently had many occasions to meet him.  He was one of the first people I saw on coming to Washington because, of course, one does need to see one&amp;rsquo;s confirmation committee chair quite quickly. He said, as I recall, 'David, Welcome to Washington. I look forward to reading your book about why welfare reform failed this time.'  And he would periodically take me out to lunch. (I dealt with him because I was just about the only person in the administration working on this topic that he seemed to tolerate).  These meetings were an intellectual and political feast.  And when I was leaving the administration, just before welfare reform was finalized&amp;mdash; when it   became clear that I was not comfortable in the direction it was heading--he took me to lunch again and he said, 'David, there is a time to stay and a time to go.  This is the right time to go.  Well done.'  His words meant the world to me.&amp;quot;</p>
<p>&amp;quot;I want to pick up on the theme that we have heard about repeatedly tonight: when is it that political and social scientists have influence on policy? And, why isn&amp;rsquo;t the influence greater? First of all, I think there are actually two places where we have lots of influence.  One is what I would call the big ideas.  Social and political scientists sometimes come up with paradigm shifting ideas that reframe the entire policy debate.  Joe Nye&amp;rsquo;s 'soft power,' Bill Wilson&amp;rsquo;s work on concentrated poverty and marriageable men, work on the spatial dimension of crime and so many others are all examples of big ideas that have changed the way we think about a problem or maybe even have let people see a problem that they did not know existed.  Those ideas are rare and special and not always welcome by the policy profession. Almost by definition, big ideas challenge orthodoxy, and sometimes they make a big difference.&amp;quot;</p>
<p>&amp;quot;The second way in which scholars really can have influence is through powerful, objective evaluations.  Serious evaluations of public policies, often using randomized controlled experiments, are becoming more common.  In my field of welfare, the work of MDRC and similar firms has been superb and hugely important.  Now, at long last, we are seeing such evaluations in education and other social policy realms.  Typically the lessons from credible evaluations are simple. They show that &amp;ldquo;this worked&amp;rdquo; or &amp;ldquo;this did not work.&amp;rdquo;  And thoughtful people from across the political spectrum take such results very seriously.&amp;quot; </p>
<p>&amp;quot;There is a third type of policy influence that is still troublingly rare. That is the influence of social scientists and political scientists on public policy development and design -- the very creation of the detailed policies themselves.  What I am talking about are the thoughtful, serious policies that form the backbone of policy development and practice.  The one exception to this is probably macroeconomics.  But I am not a macroeconomist (and by the way, microeconomists get as confused about what macroeconomists do and how they do it as the rest of you do).  So the obvious question is why do so few people from academia actually come and participate, join a team, or at least play a really central role from the outside?&amp;quot;  </p>
<p> &amp;quot;I would like to argue that in some ways it is shocking that any of us have real influence, and then I want to conclude with a few thoughts about how we might do better.&amp;quot;</p>
<p>Compare the worlds of governance and scholarship.  Public policy is about politics, because democracy is about politics.  And political values, constituencies, advocacy, courting of moneyed interests, are central to democratic politics.  Each political party has different core principles.  Election requires serving and engaging constituents, building alliances, supporting your friends, challenging your enemies.  And politics calls for raising money&amp;mdash;sometimes from quite self-interested sources.   </p>
<p>&amp;quot;And what do we political and social scientists cherish above all?  We are supposed to believe in objective truth.  At best, we will talk about politics as a constraint on getting to the truth.  We are especially nervous about powerful interests who feel strongly that public policy should go in a certain way.  We almost by nature resist any temptation to appease key constituents because we are going to be tainted by their special interests.&amp;quot;  </p>
<p>&amp;quot;Most policy-makers and most politicians, on the other hand, do not recoil at the notion that there might be strong interests supporting them in their position.  To give you a couple of examples: one of my roles during the Clinton administration on welfare reform was to deal with outside groups.  I was in charge of dealing with AFSCME, the largest public sector union, so I met with AFSCME&amp;rsquo;s president, Gerry McEntee.  At our first meeting, McEntee looked at me and said, 'Near as I can tell, you want to create more public service jobs for welfare recipients than I have members.  I find that a little threatening.'  That was a really good opening line.  And I stumbled over my answer.&amp;quot;  </p>
<p>&amp;quot;Even more telling in some respects was a comment that was made to me.  I was one of three people, along with Mary Jo Bane and Bruce Reed, in the early part of the Clinton administration, who were supposedly kind of overseeing welfare reform.  And at one point, fairly far along, the chief political officer for the Department of Health and Human Services came to me, someone who was a good friend of mine and so forth, and he said, 'You know, David, when the final deal is cut on welfare reform, you won&amp;rsquo;t be in the room.'  And I said, 'I am one of those in charge. We are making these decisions, we are figuring it out, and no one knows more.'  And he said, 'David, you care more about the impacts on poor people than you do about the political futures of those making the final decisions. You won&amp;rsquo;t be in the room.'&amp;quot;  </p>
<p>&amp;quot;Another obvious difference is the primacy of action versus ideas.  If you sit in the Congress or the White House or the State House, your goal is to pass a bill, to get something to happen, to make a policy change.  And there are events and elections that open a rare window of opportunity.  You must act now or the chance will be lost.  You strike while the iron is hot, whether or not the evidence is in.  Moreover, getting something passed may require making compromises, accepting elements one does not believe in, and adding policies that can seem silly or even dangerous.  To those of us in academia, ideas are what really matter, rather than whether or not some bill gets passed quickly, especially a poorly thought out bill full of political compromise.  Nothing is better to us than a beautiful model.  We believe reflection is far more important than action. (If you do not believe this, attend a faculty meeting).  We always believe more information is needed.  Truman used to say he wanted a one-handed economist because his were always saying &amp;ldquo;on the one hand &amp;ndash; on the other hand.&amp;rdquo;  Any of you who have tried to put together a conference volume, even from papers that were supposedly already done, know that timeliness never, never trumps thoughtful, accurate, effective scholarship.  All of these characteristics make us very dangerous political allies.  Not only are we hesitant and indecisive, we speak our minds publicly. We might even resign in protest.&amp;quot;  </p>
<p>&amp;quot;And so why on earth should or would politicians want to have to deal with scholars, who are so preoccupied with truth and ideas, and ultimately principles, when policymakers are trying to get something done?  And why should we scholars enter a process that inevitably forces us to compromise our core values?  Does it really matter, anyway?&amp;quot;</p>
<p>&amp;quot;I believe we must have scholars to be involved because democracy needs some voices on the inside who focus on facts before politics.  Pat Moynihan&amp;rsquo;s notion that was cited earlier this evening was dead on:  policymakers are welcome to their own opinion, but not to their own facts.  We have been through a period where facts seemed only relevant through a political lens, often used only when convenient for beating up the opposition.  Those of us who have worked on political campaigns or even been in government, know that one of our major roles is to convince our side not to say something that is completely wrong or completely stupid and completely inconsistent with any evidence whatsoever.  That is a really important role.  Effective decision making requires the presence of some people who really do put truth before salability, and who are not beholden to outsiders.&amp;quot;  </p>
<p>&amp;quot;We also want scholars involved because they can often see the larger implications of smaller decisions using models and theories and ideas.  Scholars are more likely to see the unexpected and counterproductive consequences of seemingly appealing policies.  They understand where critical opportunities lie and how altered policies will shape behavior.  We need scholars involved so that they can explain and spread the big ideas that are now emerging.  Policymaking must by necessity be practiced by people who are radically pragmatic.  But ideas and idealists are a vital leavening.  We need truth tellers, canaries in the coal mine, and the occasional game-changing vision.&amp;quot;  </p>
<p>&amp;quot;It is equally important for academics that some of our number do spend time in government and governing.  Those of us who have had the opportunity to serve really do come back and ask different questions.  We see the possible in a different light.  Politics becomes a source of information about people&amp;rsquo;s values and expectations rather than an unpleasant constraint.  The risk of scholarship writing itself into beautiful irrelevance is sharply reduced if at least some of its leaders deal in a serious and intense way with those who are elected or appointed to serve the people.  Asking the right questions is the hard part for most of us, and working with democratic institutions teaches us to focus so differently.&amp;quot;  </p>
<p>&amp;quot;And, of course, working in government can be incredibly exciting.  Getting a chance to change the tax code so that millions more people get a tax credit for working and then watching as work increases dramatically among low income mothers does have a certain intense hold that seems hard to match&amp;mdash;even if the intellectual content of changing basic incentives is not exactly at the frontier of knowledge.&amp;quot;  </p>
<p>&amp;quot;So for democracy and for our professions, I would argue that it is imperative that more scholars engage and participate.  Frankly, I do not expect politics or politicians to change too quickly.  I believe, though I have never examined any evidence, that staff in both the Congress and the executive branch are becoming better trained over time and more open to critical intellectual ideas.  But the core themes of politics and policymakers will always turn critically on action and advocacy and alliances.&amp;quot;  </p>
<p>&amp;quot;So I think it falls to us in academia to push our profession to be a little more admiring of service, a little more forgiving of uneasy political engagements, a little more open to the ideas and insights from those who have dirtied themselves.  I believe this can be done without compromising our most precious ideal of pursuing truth and objectivity.&amp;quot;  </p>
<p>&amp;quot;To start with, many of us need to think very differently about politics.  Economists are especially challenged in this regard.  We just think politics is at best a constraint and at worst a dangerous impediment to wise and efficient policy.  But one of the things I learned most vividly was that politics is about information.  It is about understanding the values that people hold dear, and values are quite vital to everything we do.  At one time academics all seemed to love the guaranteed annual income or the negative income tax&amp;mdash;even Milton Friedman supported it.  But to sell the idea, politicians had to claim it encouraged work&amp;mdash;which it really did not.  An idea, no matter how appealing, is not good policy if you have to sharply mislead the American public to convince them to be for it.  We proclaim our faith in democracy while casually arguing that the public is badly informed.  Politics and its derivative policies are largely about values.&amp;quot;  </p>
<p>&amp;quot;On core policy values, honest scholars have two choices.  They can either assert up front 'I have these certain value-laden principles that help guide my policy', e.g. 'if you work you should not be poor' or 'it is reasonable to expect people to work if they are able and if work pays.'  Or they can accept the core policy values of the political leaders.  Too often scholars try to hide their values when looking at policy.  And when social scientists get into power sometimes they fight with each other using data that is really about values.  During the Jimmy Carter days, the Labor Department and the Department of Health, Education, and Welfare had a huge fight because the Labor Department wanted work-based reforms that were based on common opportunity and expectations placed on citizens, in other words supporting workers but insisting on work.  The Department of Health, Education, and Welfare folks wanted a negative income tax based on minimum common rights of citizens.  The competing teams had dueling simulation models that sought to prove the virtues of their own strategy.  The truth was that these were incompatible ideals.&amp;quot;  </p>
<p>&amp;quot;It&amp;rsquo;s worth noting that once a basic outline of the ideals is set, we scholars are exceptionally good at thinking about the means to the ends.  If one was seeking to consider the ways to ensure that people who worked are not poor, academics have wonderful tools for examining alternative options.  It is comparatively easy to ask which methods are most effective in getting people working.  Should we raise the minimum wage or expand the Earned Income Tax Credit?  Should we use incentives or some sort of requirements or rules-based system and the like?&amp;quot;</p>
<p>&amp;quot;We are not as good at thinking about implementation, but we ought to be.  Scholars should value work that looks at the forces that can shape and alter delivery systems and bureaucracies.  We need to understand how and when policies actually successfully get implemented.  In the end, I concluded that welfare reform needed to focus on changing the culture of welfare offices, not the culture of poverty.  By the way, implementation design is something that Congress is equally bad at.  Congress is remarkably good at passing laws that have no credible way of working. They pass a new rule every day when they find some legitimate yet often isolated problem, and the accumulation of policies looks like the tax code.  Manuals for welfare workers would literally be books and books and books and books thick.  So guess what?  There actually wound up being no policy rather than effective policy.&amp;quot;</p>
<p>&amp;quot;In my view, we must find a way in academia to reward and admire service.  This can be done in several ways.  We can welcome practitioners into our midst and listen to and learn from them.  We can have policy schools where policy impact gets a bit more weight.  But ultimately I hope that we might learn to value and evaluate service in much the same way we do with journal articles.  Did the person provide important and honest ideas?  At the time and in the period since, can they look critically at the policy ideas being considered?  Has the scholar become an advocate, or a wiser observer?  Did the ideas really have an impact?&amp;quot;  </p>
<p>&amp;quot;There are home runs in the intellectual policy arena too.  We ought to find a way to evaluate them with the same rigor and admiration we apply to traditional research.  Very few of our departments actually look at that in anything other than a neutral fashion, but more commonly negative.  I remember when I was in the job market long ago and I went to various universities and I would occasionally dare to say, 'I am kind of interested in doing public policy work.'  And some places would implicitly say, 'Why didn&amp;rsquo;t you tell us this earlier?  We could have saved your plane fare.'  The more open minded suggested, 'You know, policy work is fine.  Some people play basketball with their free time, you can do policy, as long as it does not interfere with your work.'  We really do have to decide, if we believe this, that we are actually going to reward it so that young people that do it.  I believe our democracy and our scholarship urgently need a more supportive atmosphere.&amp;quot;  </p>
<p>&amp;quot;So, thanks again to the Academy. Pat Moynihan was a remarkable man and none of us, I think, will ever have the chance to be or even see anyone much like him.  I think he would be very discouraged if he felt like the professions that he participated in and the social science did not figure out a way to keep social scientists involved.  So here is a Pat Moynihan dream.  When we have these awards 10 years from now, the dream would be that rather than having people all talk about the puzzle of why we don&amp;rsquo;t we have more influence or why academia does not value policy work, all of the honorees will say, 'Isn't it great that scholarly ideas are so often a central part of everything we do.'&amp;quot;</p>
<p>&amp;quot;So from the bottom of my heart, thank you very much for this great honor.&amp;quot;  </p>
<p><em>David Ellwood is dean of the John F. Kennedy School of Government at Harvard University. The preceding remarks were taken from his acceptance speech delivered at the Newseum on May 7, 2009 upon receiving the 2009 Daniel Patrick Moynihan Prize.</em></p>...]]>
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	<entry>
		<title>William Julius Wilson on Daniel Patrick Moynihanâ¬"s â¬SAgenda-Settingâ¬ý Contributions to Social Science</title>
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		<modified>2010-03-02T04:11:17Z</modified>
		<issued>2009-05-25T12:00:00Z</issued>
 		<id>tag:blog.aapss.org,2010:91</id> 
		<created>2009-05-25T12:00:00Z</created>
		<summary type="text/plain"><![CDATA[                                                       Download: Right-click and Save As Podcast]]></summary>
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			<email>jodland@sas.upenn.edu</email>
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<p>&amp;quot;It amuses me every time I read that some of Daniel Patrick Moynihan&amp;rsquo;s critics dismiss the importance of his scholarly work&amp;mdash;arguing that he rarely published in peer-review journals, that his writings on poverty and welfare were shoddy, and that, as one critic put it, 'he had not made a positive contribution to public understanding of these topics.'&amp;quot;</p>
<p>&amp;quot;I categorically reject such views.&amp;nbsp; Indeed, Moynihan made major contributions to social science in three areas: (1) race and ethnic relations; (2) poverty and family structure; and (3) social science and public policy. His book, <span style="font-style: italic;">Beyond the Melting Pot</span>, co-authored with Nathan Glazer, is one of the most widely cited books on race and ethnic relations.&amp;nbsp; This book effectively challenged the view that immigrants would eventually lose their ethnic identities by showing that ethnicity is an enduring social form, persisting through successive generations.&amp;quot;</p>
<p>&amp;quot;Moynihan&amp;rsquo;s study of the relationship between poverty and family structure, famously known as the Moynihan Report, is, as I noted in a recent article in the Annals of the American Academy of Political and Social Science, an important and prophetic document.&amp;nbsp; It is important because it continues to be a reference for studies on the black family and the plight of low-skilled black males.&amp;nbsp; It was prophetic because Moynihan&amp;rsquo;s predictions about the fragmentation of the African American Family and its connection to inner-city poverty were largely borne out, and since 1990, social scientists and civil rights leaders have echoed his concerns about black make joblessness and the need for social policies that would address their skills deficits and change behavioral responses that emanate from severe employment constraints.&amp;quot;[pagebreak]</p>
<p>&amp;quot;Moynihan attempted to synthesize structural and cultural analyses to understand the dynamics of poor black families and the plight of low-skilled black males.&amp;nbsp; And now, more than forty years after the public release of his report, we are seeing the beginnings of a more sophisticated synthesis of structure and culture by social scientists who readily acknowledge Moynihan&amp;rsquo;s important contribution to this subject.&amp;quot;</p>
<p>&amp;quot;Also, he was one the first social scientists to call attention to the growing gap between the black middle class and the black poor&amp;mdash;a gap that has continued to widen and has been the focus of a lot of research and writings, including my own.&amp;quot;</p>
<p>&amp;quot;Finally, Moynihan was among the early social scientists who recognized that as racial barriers fall in the face of anti-discrimination legislation, the cumulative effects of racial oppression will make it extremely difficult for many poor African Americans to take advantage of opportunities provided by the civil rights movement.&amp;nbsp; Accordingly, he recommended a shift in civil-rights activity to increase the resources of the black family.&amp;quot;</p>
<p>&amp;quot;Since Moynihan&amp;rsquo;s writings on race and ethnic relations and on poverty and family structure have been the focus of so much subsequent research&amp;mdash;indeed the number of studies boggles the mind&amp;mdash;I strongly feel that he ranks among some of our most important social scientists.&amp;quot;</p>
<p>&amp;quot;Although many of Moynihan&amp;rsquo;s ideas represent an original synthesis of existing scholarship, his work was bold and controversial.&amp;nbsp; But, the controversy was productive.&amp;nbsp; I think that my colleague at Harvard, Theda Skocpol, put it best.&amp;nbsp; She stated that Moynihan&amp;rsquo;s taste for controversy has influenced both his political and academic careers.&amp;nbsp; And that he had an extraordinary ability to dramatize an issue by putting his finger on things.&amp;nbsp; For example, she states, his report on the black family performed a national service in dramatizing the issue of family structure, and many people 'who care about inequality are fully aware of its contribution.'&amp;nbsp; I fully agree.&amp;nbsp; This man&amp;rsquo;s work was agenda setting.&amp;nbsp; I am so pleased that he is finally getting the full recognition that he deserves.&amp;nbsp; Thank you.&amp;quot;</p>
<p><em>William Julius Wilson is Lewis P. and Linda L. Geyser University Professor at Harvard University. The preceding are excerpts from his remarks in presenting the 2009 Daniel Patrick Moynihan Prize to David Ellwood.</em></p>...]]>
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	<entry>
		<title>AAPSS Installs 2009 Academy Fellows</title>
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		<modified>2010-03-02T04:11:17Z</modified>
		<issued>2009-05-24T12:00:00Z</issued>
 		<id>tag:blog.aapss.org,2010:87</id> 
		<created>2009-05-24T12:00:00Z</created>
		<summary type="text/plain"><![CDATA[On May 7th, 2009, AAPSS President Douglas S. Massey inducted five scholars as Fellows of the]]></summary>
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			<name>AAPSS Blog</name>
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			<email>jodland@sas.upenn.edu</email>
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            <td>Douglas Massey</td>
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<p>On May 7th, 2009, AAPSS President Douglas S. Massey inducted five scholars as Fellows of the Academy, in recognition of their outstanding contributions to social science and their sustained efforts to communicate their research beyond their disciplines.&amp;nbsp; They included: <a href="http://www.aapss.org/section.cfm/3/15/1261/1341" target="_blank">Mahzarin Banaji</a>, Richard Clarke Cabot Professor of Social Ethics in the Department of Psychology at Harvard University; <a target="_blank" href="http://www.aapss.org/section.cfm/3/15/1261/1342">Alan S. Blinder</a>, Gordon S. Rentschler Memorial professor of Economics and Public Affairs at Princeton University; <a target="_blank" href="http://www.aapss.org/section.cfm/3/15/1261/1343">Morris P. Fiorina</a>, Wendt Family Professor of Political Science and senior fellow of the Hoover Institution at Stanford University; <a target="_blank" href="http://www.aapss.org/section.cfm/3/15/1261/1344">Joseph S. Nye, Jr.</a>, University Distinguished Service Professor at the Harvard Kennedy School of Government; and <a target="_blank" href="http://www.aapss.org/section.cfm/3/15/1261/1345">Lawrence W. Sherman</a>, Director of the Jerry Lee Center of Criminology at the University of Pennsylvania and Wolfson Professor of Criminology at the University of Cambridge.</p>
<p>In inducting the new Fellows, Professor Massey noted that they also shared &amp;ldquo;a belief in the value of bringing the power of the intellectual realm --and the weight of data, research, and evidence--to bear on society&amp;rsquo;s most vexing policy issues.&amp;nbsp; We have come together to honor a set of individuals who have made particular contributions in that arena&amp;mdash;using the power of their intellects and cutting-edge research to fight poverty, to attack crime and gun violence on our city streets; and to propose an entirely new approach to foreign policy beyond the use of military force. They have helped chart a course for the American economy in the midst of turmoil, to understand the way the unconscious fuels dangerous prejudices and stereotypes, and to improve the ability of elected leaders to understand and better reflect their constituents&amp;rsquo; preferences.&amp;rdquo;</p>
<p>At the installation dinner, which was held at the Newseum in Washington, DC, the new Fellows spoke about how they felt their research had influenced public policy in ways that they welcomed. To read, or listen to, their acceptance speeches, click on the photos below.</p>
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            <td><a href="http://blog.aapss.org/index.cfm?commentID=92"><img width="125" height="83" border="1" alt="Mahzarin Banaji" src="Image/Banaji.jpg" /></a></td>
            <td><a href="http://blog.aapss.org/index.cfm?commentID=93"><img width="125" height="83" border="1" alt="Alan Blinder" src="Image/Blinder.jpg" /></a></td>
            <td><a href="http://blog.aapss.org/index.cfm?commentID=94"><img width="125" height="83" border="1" alt="Morris Fiorina" src="Image/Fiorina.jpg" /></a></td>
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            <td><a href="http://blog.aapss.org/index.cfm?commentID=92"><font size="2" align="center">Mahzarin Banaji</font></a></td>
            <td><a href="http://blog.aapss.org/index.cfm?commentID=93"><font size="2" align="center">Alan Blinder</font></a></td>
            <td><a href="http://blog.aapss.org/index.cfm?commentID=94"><font size="2" align="center">Morris Fiorina</font></a></td>
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            <td><a href="http://blog.aapss.org/index.cfm?commentID=95"><img width="125" height="83" border="1" alt="Joseph Nye" src="Image/Nye.jpg" /></a></td>
            <td><a href="http://blog.aapss.org/index.cfm?commentID=96"><img width="125" height="83" border="1" alt="Lawrence Sherman" src="Image/Sherman.jpg" /></a></td>
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            <td><a href="http://blog.aapss.org/index.cfm?commentID=95"><font size="2" align="center">Joseph Nye</font></a></td>
            <td><a href="http://blog.aapss.org/index.cfm?commentID=96"><font size="2" align="center">Lawrence Sherman</font></a></td>
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            <div style="text-align: left;"> <font size="2"><a href="http://www.aapss.org/section.cfm/5/27/1340" target="_blank">Go to Fullsize Slideshow</a></font> <br /></div>
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	<entry>
		<title>Mahzarin Banaji: â¬STechnology has allowed us glimpses of our deepest natureâ¬ý</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="http://blog.aapss.org/index.cfm?CommentID=92" />
		<modified>2010-03-02T04:11:17Z</modified>
		<issued>2009-05-23T12:00:00Z</issued>
 		<id>tag:blog.aapss.org,2010:92</id> 
		<created>2009-05-23T12:00:00Z</created>
		<summary type="text/plain"><![CDATA[                                                     AAPSS Fellow Dr. Mahazarin Banaji              ]]></summary>
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			<name>AAPSS Blog</name>
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			<email>jodland@sas.upenn.edu</email>
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            <td><a target="_blank" href="http://www.aapss.org/section.cfm/3/15/1261/1341">AAPSS Fellow Dr. Mahazarin Banaji</a></td>
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<p>In this moment when we are witness to the breakdown of systems financial and social in which so many had such faith, we might remember with a smile and even some mischief the words of Winston Churchill, who said that America--referring to the American government--that America can always be counted on to do the right thing, but not until it had tried every other method first.&amp;nbsp; With much less of a smile, many of us in this room have surely wondered in recent months if perhaps we might have avoided inflicting suffering on so many, especially the most vulnerable amongst us, if our leaders had been educated, even slightly, in the core ideas of the social sciences and had an understanding, even a superficial one, of the power of its methods of discovery.&amp;nbsp; Would we be a decidedly better society if we had had not one Senator Moynihan but dozens like him involved in setting policy domestically and advising globally?&amp;nbsp; The answer, based on my deep confidence of the virtue of what social scientists have done, is a resounding yes.&amp;nbsp; I was a teenager in India when Ambassador Moynihan was the United States representative to that country.&amp;nbsp; And I surely gained personally from his role in the ingenious sequestering of P.L. 480 funds, which otherwise would have set that country on a severe inflationary trajectory.&amp;nbsp; To know how to do this is not easy.&amp;nbsp; It requires an ability to manufacture a whole system, to deliver a policy that will affect millions who will scarcely know how they were affected or even that they were affected.&amp;nbsp; It requires deep knowledge of complex systems, but as I say to my students, social science is not rocket science, it is a whole lot harder.[pagebreak]&amp;nbsp; </p>
<p>What a thrill it is that this Academy so uniquely singles out a particular type of scholar to recognize, the ones of us who cannot stay put in one place.&amp;nbsp; What a complete honor it is to be recognized by association to a giant, who stood for the social sciences as robustly as did Herbert Simon.&amp;nbsp; Herb, as many of you may know, received his PhD in political science, one; sat in a department of psychology, two; was the founder of the field of computer science, three; and received the Nobel Prize in economics.&amp;nbsp; It is hard to imagine that another one like him will be amongst us anytime soon, and I consider myself doubly privileged for knowing him up close through my husband, Bhaskar, whose mentor and thesis advisor he was.&amp;nbsp; When this Academy was created to, it says, promote the progress of the social sciences it was an organization well ahead of its time.&amp;nbsp; How many old societies can say that they included women from the beginning, even when that beginning was 115 years ago?&amp;nbsp; Hell, around that time my university had turned Mary Calkins down for the degree of PhD even though she had met all requirements and obtained all necessary male signatures.&amp;nbsp; It is also said of this organization&amp;rsquo;s Annals that in it difficult topics were not avoided.&amp;nbsp; Indeed, it devoted the 1901 meeting to an analysis of race with Booker T. Washington presenting a paper.&amp;nbsp; In this sense, the issues I have been passionate about and had the privilege of understanding have been the heart and soul of this Academy&amp;rsquo;s work, more than any other I can think of.&amp;nbsp; So, again, I am indebted to you for this association with you.</p>
<p>But it is also true that progress being what it is, the founders of this Academy surely did not have my brand of social science in mind.&amp;nbsp; In 1889, the idea of a computer was, as we know it, somewhat rudimentary.&amp;nbsp; Computers aside, it would have been inconceivable that the time taken in milliseconds to complete a mental operation could in any sense inform contemporary political, economic, or social issues.&amp;nbsp; And yet that is what my work, because of the work of those before me and alongside me, Susan Fiske most notably, has turned this into a thriving social science.&amp;nbsp; We have taken complex thoughts and feelings, thoughts and feelings about ourselves, others who are similar, and especially others who are not so similar, and reduced them first to a number such as 550.&amp;nbsp; It takes the mind 550 milliseconds to categorize the most important social entities in our universe so far, that is to say other humans, into social groups; black or white, male or female, rich or poor, old or young.&amp;nbsp; And based on these numbers, in a slightly more complex configuration than I am letting on, we have made a host of claims that we ourselves could scarcely have imagined some years ago.&amp;nbsp; We now know first and foremost that we are not the people we think we are.&amp;nbsp; We are deeply flawed beings.&amp;nbsp; Herb Simon used a more palatable phrase to refer to us as boundedly rational, not perfectly rational, not classically rational, but boundedly rational.&amp;nbsp; Human beings, he said, have neither the facts nor the consistent structure of values nor the reasoning power at their disposal to make decisions in line with subjective expected utility, which he said is a beautiful object deserving a prominent place in Plato&amp;rsquo;s heaven of ideas but impossible to employ in any literal way in making actual human decisions.&amp;nbsp; Our failures, we have learned, stem from the quite ordinary aspects of our brains and minds, our sociocultural environments, and the immediate situations in which we find ourselves.&amp;nbsp; In spite of the many positive effects such influences have on us they also disrupt, for no obvious fault of our own, the moral pacts that we make with ourselves to be good, to be fair, to be just.&amp;nbsp; To reveal these invisible aspects of our minds has been the difficulty.&amp;nbsp; But the power of technology has allowed us glimpses of our deepest nature and how our social worlds shape us to be who we are, and to our great delight the message we have taken on the road, that we are unconsciously biased in ways that do not make us proud, seems to be slowly getting heard.&amp;nbsp; It may not be welcomed, but it is being engaged with.&amp;nbsp; Over ten million tests of implicit bias have been sampled at the website in the last ten years; legal scholars and lawyers have made use of these ideas in moving forward their own work; businesses have found that these ideas persuade even the most intransigent members about the barriers to diversity; doctors and social workers find it stunning that even they, the most well-intentioned of all, may be far from their own goal of serving everybody equally.&amp;nbsp; </p>
<p>In all of this bleak rewriting of our natures, there is a silver splash.&amp;nbsp; It being the 200th birth anniversary of Charles Darwin, it is especially timely to remember something that he said so well.&amp;nbsp; Darwin said that it is not the strongest who will survive, nor the most intelligent, but the one who is most adaptive to change.&amp;nbsp; What the social sciences that I am so fortunate to have been a part of have shown is that the darndest aspects of the mind can be explored and laid bare.&amp;nbsp; To do with it what is right and what is good is in our hands because we are, above all else, infinitely adaptable.</p>
<p><em><a target="_blank" href="http://www.aapss.org/section.cfm/3/15/1261/1341">Mahazarin Banaji</a> is Richard Clarke Cabot Professor of Social Ethics in the Department of Psychology at Harvard University. These remarks were prepared for her induction as the 2009 Herbert Simon Fellow of the American Academy of Political and Social Science.</em></p>...]]>
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	<entry>
		<title>Alan S. Blinder: Good Ideas that Come from Economic Reasoning</title>
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		<issued>2009-05-22T12:00:00Z</issued>
 		<id>tag:blog.aapss.org,2010:93</id> 
		<created>2009-05-22T12:00:00Z</created>
		<summary type="text/plain"><![CDATA[                                                     AAPSS Fellow Dr. Alan Blinder                  ]]></summary>
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            <td><a target="_blank" href="http://www.aapss.org/section.cfm/3/15/1261/1342">AAPSS Fellow Dr. Alan Blinder</a></td>
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            <td><span style="font-weight: bold;">  Download:</span><br /> <a href="http://www.aapss.org/uploads/blinder0507.mp3">Right-click and Save As Podcast (MP3)</a><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"> Listen Now:</span><br /> </td>
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<p>I want to talk about economics and public policy and, in particular, to develop a paradox&amp;mdash;which, Webster reminds, us is an apparent contradiction, not an actual contradiction. The paradox is about the standing of economics within the social sciences. Many scholars in economics are very aloof&amp;mdash;you might even say, disengaged from reality. Much of the work that economic scholars produce is completely impenetrable to almost everybody, including most other economic scholars. This is true much more so in economics than in any of the other social sciences, by a large margin I think. And yet economists are involved more in the public policy domain&amp;mdash;as advisors, as commentators, and even as government officials&amp;mdash;than people in the other social sciences. I personally have been involved in all three of those roles. In addition, I fancy myself as being a scholar. I can tell you these roles are very, very different. When you approach an economic problem as a scholar does, you want detachment. Objectivity is extremely important. Standards of evidence are very high. The time horizon is often very long&amp;mdash;not only the time horizon of the problem, but also the time horizon of the research. I often cite the Robert Mondavi principle, that is, a good scholar releases no work before its time. </p>
<p>If you are a commentator on or an advisor about economic policy, you have to work on a rather different time horizon. You cannot be as detached as a pure scholar. Subjectivity creeps in, even politics creeps in. The standards of evidence necessarily fall, hopefully not to zero&amp;mdash;that is the trick. The time horizon shortens dramatically, both the policy time horizon (over what time does this issue matter) and the time you have to come up with an answer. When I was on President Clinton&amp;rsquo;s Council of Economic Advisors, I used to tell incoming staff members that, if I tell you it is a research project, that means you have until Friday; the other things we needed much faster than that. And then, of course, at the end of all this you might have the misfortune&amp;mdash;really the good fortune&amp;mdash;that I had of becoming a public official yourself. Then you really do have to get down and dirty. Objectivity gives way to subjectivity. Politics, depending on where you are (not so much at the Fed, but in the political part of the government), is everywhere. The standard of evidence falls really low, hopefully not to zero&amp;mdash;that is the art there. The time horizon shortens dramatically, and you just have to give the best answer you can now, whether or not Robert Mondavi would say it is time.[pagebreak]</p>
<p>I want to close by taking a concrete example that was in this morning&amp;rsquo;s newspapers. The House passed yesterday a version of what is called &amp;ldquo;Cash for Clunkers.&amp;rdquo; I do not know how many of you know what that is. If you look it up on Wikipedia, it will tell you I invented either the concept or the name. This is not true. I did not invent either. The basic idea of Cash for Clunkers is to pay above market value to get people to turn in gas-guzzling old cars&amp;mdash;clunkers. I wrote about this in The New York Times last July. It&amp;rsquo;s a program that I have liked for a long, long time. I lauded it, first of all, as environmental policy&amp;mdash;which is probably the most obvious. Secondly, as fiscal stimulus&amp;mdash;it was a way to spend money in a very sensible way, and you could get it out pretty fast, though not instantly. Thirdly, as something that did some income equalization because, if you think about who owns the clunkers, it is the low-income people, by and large&amp;mdash;or rather, low-income people and some professors. And by the way, as a throwaway remark at the end of the piece I said, &amp;ldquo;You know, the auto industry is having problems. This would be pretty good for the auto industry.&amp;rdquo; That was last July. Now, there was some research base for these claims&amp;mdash;but nothing that would pass muster with the referees of the American Economic Review, I can assure you of that&amp;mdash;based on pilot programs that had gone on here and there. So this idea went into the policy hopper, and the policy hopper is a messy sausage grinder, as most of us in this room know. It just missed getting into the Obama stimulus package. It was then revived as part of the energy policy&amp;mdash;it is, after all, environmental policy&amp;mdash;at which point the lobbyists start descending on the idea and the economic analysis got pushed aside completely. The impetus for this program now, I think, is obvious to all&amp;mdash;which is that the auto industry is now not just in trouble but on its knees, and Cash for Clunkers is now being thought of as a way to stimulate the demand for new cars. It was apparently very successful in this regard in Germany, this year or last year. And so all the rest, as Hillel would have said, has become commentary. This program is now about increasing the demand for cars; and the environmental, income distribution, and stimulus aspects have all gone by the wayside. The next step is for the House and the Senate to conference this because there are different bills in the House and the Senate. Again, I can assure you that economic analysis will be irrelevant in that conference. I can assure you of that, though I cannot predict what will come out of the conference. </p>
<p>But I want to close by explaining why I brought this policy up. In addition to its timeliness, I think it illustrates some of the interactions among analysts, advisors, commentators, and policy makers, that I was talking about. Cash for Clunkers is, after all, a good idea that came out of pure economic reasoning.</p>
<p><em><a target="_blank" href="http://www.aapss.org/section.cfm/3/15/1261/1342">Alan Blinder</a> is the Gordon S. Rentschler Memorial Professor of Economics and Public Affairs at Princeton University and co-director of Princeton&amp;rsquo;s Center for Economic Policy Studies. These remarks were prepared for his induction as the 2009 John Kenneth Galbraith Fellow of the American Academy of Political and Social Science.</em></p>...]]>
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	<entry>
		<title>Morris Fiorina: â¬SI would love to believe that Obama read &apos;Culture Wars&apos;â¬ý</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="http://blog.aapss.org/index.cfm?CommentID=94" />
		<modified>2010-03-02T04:11:17Z</modified>
		<issued>2009-05-21T12:00:00Z</issued>
 		<id>tag:blog.aapss.org,2010:94</id> 
		<created>2009-05-21T12:00:00Z</created>
		<summary type="text/plain"><![CDATA[                                                     AAPSS Fellow Dr. Morris Fiorina                ]]></summary>
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            <td><a href="http://www.aapss.org/section.cfm/3/15/1261/1343" target="_blank">AAPSS Fellow Dr. Morris Fiorina</a></td>
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            <td><span style="font-weight: bold;">  Download:</span><br /> <a href="http://www.aapss.org/uploads/fiorina0507.mp3">Right-click and Save As Podcast (MP3)</a><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"> Listen Now:</span><br /> </td>
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<p>If there is an afterlife, I hope that Professor Lasswell has a sense of humor. Those of us in the rational choice school operate with a minimalist conception of human psychology (our critics say an impoverished conception), whereas Lasswell believed that Freudian psychology was the key to understanding human behavior. Oh well, perhaps there are similarities between us that I am unaware of.</p>
<p>All false modesty aside, I can be brief. When the letter arrived instructing me to speak for five-seven minutes tonight on my contributions to public policy I was somewhat taken aback because I was not aware that I had made such contributions. I have been an ivory tower academic for most of my career with only sporadic attempts to alter the course of public policy. But I don&amp;rsquo;t want to leave the impression that the Academy made a mistake in selecting me, so I will briefly summarize my possible contributions, and stimulated by a recent Washington Post op-ed by Joe Nye, I&amp;rsquo;ll reflect on the motivation for periodically stepping down from the Ivory Tower, and the reaction among my professional peers when I did so.</p>
<p>In 1977 I published a little book, Congress&amp;mdash;Keystone of the Washington Establishment. In that book I tried to apply the coup de grace to the New Deal Model of public policy making. According to that model Congress should pass legislation that established general public interest goals, and delegate the specifics to an agency staffed by experts. The courts, in turn, would defer to agency expertise, and the result was good public policy.[pagebreak]</p>
<p>Political scientists had already identified problems with the model&amp;mdash;agency capture for one--but I argued that the model had completely degenerated so that a one-time means to making good policy had become an electoral end. Members of Congress took credit for passing a law while avoiding responsibility for the specific consequences. In fact, they would step in to remedy problems created by the legislation--blaming bureaucrats and judges for them--thus profiting again from their initial irresponsibility. </p>
<p>This line of work evolved into a more general interest in inter-branch relations and in the 1980s I had a fair amount of contact with academic lawyers who were attempting to construct a new model of administrative law that took account of empirical realities.</p>
<p>In the 1990s I wrote another general interest book, Divided Government. Our two parties were becoming more distinct and more differentiated, as political scientists had long advocated, but the evidence suggested that Americans didn&amp;rsquo;t like what professors did. In fact, they persisted in electing Republican majorities and Democratic Congresses, thus vitiating the theoretical positive effects of responsible parties. This struck me as a puzzle worth exploring, and those explorations eventually led to my most recent contribution.</p>
<p>In 1998 I moved to Stanford and (half) of my job description changed. Hoover Fellows are encouraged to reach out and touch the larger world of journalists, politicos and interested laypersons. And as I did so I began to realize how poorly the popular picture of American politics reflected reality. The result was Culture War? The Myth of a Polarized America.&amp;nbsp; (Incidentally, the first sentence of the preface quotes Senator Moynihan&amp;rsquo;s pithy observation that &amp;ldquo;we are all entitled to our own opinions, but not to our own facts.&amp;rdquo; That has been my credo). Culture War? was all about facts. My collaborators and I showed that the views of blue and red state residents were not nearly as divergent as generally supposed, that hot button issues like abortion were not very important to most Americans, that even on hot button issues, there&amp;rsquo;s lots of common ground, and that the polarized political class doesn&amp;rsquo;t look like most of America.</p>
<p>A New York Times feature story that discussed the book was published in June of 2004 and a flurry of publicity ensued. A little more than a month after publication an obscure Democratic Senate candidate took the podium at the Democratic National Convention and said, among other things, that &amp;ldquo;&amp;hellip;we worship an awesome God in the blue states, and we don&amp;rsquo;t like federal agents poking around our libraries in the red states. We coach little league in the blue states and, yes, we&amp;rsquo;ve got some gay friends in the red states.&amp;rdquo;</p>
<p>I would love to believe that Obama had read the book, or at least that someone on his staff had told him, &amp;ldquo;hey, there&amp;rsquo;s this professor on the West Coast who says all this polarization stuff is overblown,&amp;rdquo; but I guess I&amp;rsquo;ll never know.</p>
<p>Many of you have seen Joe Nye&amp;rsquo;s op-ed decrying the separation of academic social science from the real world of practice. Reading it made me reflect on my own attempts to bridge that separation. I think Joe overlooked the most obvious reason most of us don&amp;rsquo;t actually serve in governmental capacities: we become academics because we don&amp;rsquo;t want a 9-5 job, so the prospect of a 7-7 job is that much more horrifying. But his more general point about the lack of interest in policy-relevant research is worth serious consideration.</p>
<p>In my own case dissatisfaction with the status quo was the principal motivation for reaching out to a more general audience. American politics professors don&amp;rsquo;t have high expectations for government. That&amp;rsquo;s not a cynical observation, only a reflection of our appreciation of the difficulties of governing a big heterogeneous country through highly decentralized, politically responsive institutions. But sometimes government seems to be doing even worse than usual. Judging by the gray hair in the audience a lot of you will remember the 1970s&amp;mdash;environmental crises, energy crises, stagflation&amp;mdash;a bad decade all around. But there was a lack of critical analysis in the American politics literature, a reluctance to evaluate. I believed there was something between dispassionate description and polemics, and Keystone was an attempt to hit that in-between spot.</p>
<p>Similarly, in the 1990s I realized that I didn&amp;rsquo;t like the two parties as they were evolving, and my reaction might be common among the general public. </p>
<p>And in the 2000s I just got fed up with journalists and politicos blaming voters for the sorry state of national politics.</p>
<p>Peer reaction to these efforts may shed some light on Joe Nye&amp;rsquo;s complaint. Keystone won no professional prizes. In fact, it received several negative reviews, and I heard through the grapevine that some senior congressional scholars were unhappy with me. I certainly had some worries that publishing the book was not a good career move. In fact, as soon as the manuscript went off to Yale Press I went right back to another project and in a few years published a mainstream political science book, Retrospective Voting. This one was aimed squarely at professional political scientists and sold accordingly. When I was negotiating with Harvard in 1982, Joe, our late colleague Arthur Maass told me flatly that he didn&amp;rsquo;t like the Congress book, but that Retrospective Voting was in the tradition of V.O. Key, so he didn&amp;rsquo;t oppose me.</p>
<p>Similarly, Culture War? has won no prizes. Indeed, to my knowledge there has not been a review in any professional journal. There&amp;rsquo;s been little professional criticism. Rather, the more typical reaction seems to be that &amp;ldquo;we all knew that already.&amp;rdquo; Yes, if &amp;ldquo;we all&amp;rdquo; means the several hundred professionals who spend their lives mucking around in public opinion data, we all did.</p>
<p>But there may be grounds for optimism. After 32 years, Keystone is still in print, very slowly closing in on 90,000 copies sold. Culture War? sold 65,000 copies during President Bush&amp;rsquo;s second term, and there have been about 650 class adoptions to date.</p>
<p>So just as the political class is not representative of the public at large, so the academic class&amp;mdash;the elite research professoriate&amp;mdash;may not be representative of the academic public at large. I suspect there is much greater appreciation of research that makes policy contributions than we realize, and Joe&amp;rsquo;s attempt to push academics in that direction may meet with less resistance than we might think.</p>
<p>Thank you all for this honor.</p>
<p><em><a target="_blank" href="http://www.aapss.org/section.cfm/3/15/1261/1343">Morris Fiorina</a> is the Wendt Family Professor of Political Science and a senior fellow of the Hoover Institution at Stanford University. These remarks were prepared for his induction as the 2009 Harold Lasswell Fellow of the American Academy of Political and Social Science.</em></p>...]]>
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	<entry>
		<title>Joseph S. Nye, Jr.: Figuring Out How to Combine Soft and Hard Power in Different Contexts</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="http://blog.aapss.org/index.cfm?CommentID=95" />
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		<issued>2009-05-20T12:00:00Z</issued>
 		<id>tag:blog.aapss.org,2010:95</id> 
		<created>2009-05-20T12:00:00Z</created>
		<summary type="text/plain"><![CDATA[                                                     AAPSS Fellow Dr. Joseph Nye                    ]]></summary>
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            <td><a href="http://www.aapss.org/section.cfm/3/15/1261/1344" target="_blank">AAPSS Fellow Dr. Joseph Nye</a></td>
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            <td><span style="font-weight: bold;">  Download:</span><br /> <a href="http://www.aapss.org/uploads/nye0507.mp3">Right-click and Save As Podcast (MP3)</a><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"> Listen Now:</span><br /> </td>
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<p>It is a real pleasure to have the honor of being the Theodore Roosevelt Fellow of the American Academy. I do not know how you chose who got which titles, but it seems to be particularly appropriate since the idea of speaking softly and carrying a big stick was the original definition of smart power.&amp;nbsp; But I also realize, as I think about the honor, that as I watch my children growing up, people would call the house and say, &amp;ldquo;Is Dr. Nye there?&amp;rdquo;&amp;nbsp; And they would all say, &amp;ldquo;Yes, but he is not the useful kind.&amp;rdquo;&amp;nbsp; If I think back to the work that I have done and what affect it has, in all of five minutes or so, what strikes me is that it probably grew out of a dissatisfaction with the dominant paradigm of my own field at the time, in which the general view at the height of the Cold War was a sense of realism in which states were the only significant actors, security was their only significant goal, and force was their dominant instrument.&amp;nbsp; And I had actually done my PhD in East Africa on relations between Kenya, Uganda, and Tanzania, and it just struck me that the dominant paradigm did not capture what I was seeing or studying.&amp;nbsp; And I had the good fortune in my early stages as assistant professor at Harvard to encounter a likeminded friend, Bob Keohane, who has become a lifelong friend, and the two of us shared this discontent with the constraints or limits of the dominant paradigm in our field.&amp;nbsp; Not that it was not useful for some purposes, but that it was unduly constraining.[pagebreak]&amp;nbsp; So we wrote a book on transnational relations in world politics, which said you have to look at non-state actors like terrorists and multinational corporations and other such things, and we followed that with a book on power and interdependence, saying that when you thought about how states worked with each other in economic relations, it was through use of force, it was the manipulation of asymmetrical interdependence and creating institutional regimes, which made it easier or harder for one or another state to do such things, or another group, a non-state group.&amp;nbsp; And we also developed a concept which we called complex interdependence, which was what would it be like if you had some situations in which states were not the major actors, in which you found that they were not using force, and pursuit of security was not their dominant concern.&amp;nbsp; Which would, I think, describe the relations among most of what we call advanced democracies today; the idea of fighting between France and Germany, between the U.S. and Japan, the U.S. and Canada, this is just outside the domain of what makes sense and yet a large chunk of international politics is like that.&amp;nbsp; So, in that sense, I think when Bob and I first wrote about these concepts in the early 1970s we were regarded as slightly fringe, slightly far out.&amp;nbsp; There was a revival of the Cold War, everybody quickly glommed on to revival of the traditional paradigm, and yet today if we think of a world in which every politician has globalization tripping off his or her tongue, and if you look at a world in which non-state actors killed more Americans on 9/11 than the government of Japan did in December, 1941, some of the thoughts that we developed in the 1970s have actually come full circle, now they are commonplace.&amp;nbsp; They were not when we first invented them.</p>
<p>I followed that with another discontent in the late 1980s, which was the way we thought about power in my subfield.&amp;nbsp; There was a tremendous tendency to think of power in terms of what I call the concrete fallacy--that you confuse power, which is actually about behavior &amp;ndash; getting others to do what you would like them to do &amp;ndash; with the resources that produce it.&amp;nbsp; And so people thought of power as either something you could drop on your foot or drop on another city.&amp;nbsp; And it struck me that this was inadequate and that it was narrowly truncating how we thought about power in our field.&amp;nbsp; And as I was trying to write a book at the time, in the late 1980s, about why I thought the theory of declinism that my friend Paul Kennedy had written, that the Americans were on the way out, was wrong.&amp;nbsp; It struck me that he had an inadequate concept of power.&amp;nbsp; Now, it is also true that when I wrote the book Bound to Lead, which coined the term &amp;ldquo;soft power,&amp;rdquo; I think I got the answer right but Paul got all the royalties.&amp;nbsp; I looked at military power and economic power and said, &amp;ldquo;There is still something missing,&amp;rdquo; to understand why the Americans were influential, and that is the ability to get what you want by attraction, by setting others&amp;rsquo; preferences and then after you have set the preferences they can bargain as they wish.&amp;nbsp; That I think has had some effect and what strikes me is that when you find not just Tony Blair or the Prime Minister of Japan using the term soft power, as he did a week ago when I was in Tokyo, but when you see that Hu Jintao instructs the Seventeenth Party Congress of the Communist Party that China needs to think more about soft power, you think &amp;ldquo;Oh my goodness, this thing has gone around further than I expected.&amp;rdquo;&amp;nbsp; Now, it is also true that when you use a term like that it can get misused.&amp;nbsp; And in 2004, I published a book in which I inserted the term &amp;ldquo;smart power,&amp;rdquo; because too many people were interpreting what I was saying is that soft power, the ability to attract rather than coerce and pay, is sufficient and it was not.&amp;nbsp; What I was trying to say is that you need to be able to figure out how to combine hard and soft power in different contexts.&amp;nbsp; And in that sense, the terminology &amp;ldquo;soft power&amp;rdquo; is an analytical concept, &amp;ldquo;smart power&amp;rdquo; is a normative concept, preference, you want smart strategies which are able to be successful.&amp;nbsp; And I was pleased then when Hillary Clinton, testifying before the Senate for her confirmation hearings, referred to the new administration&amp;rsquo;s desire to use smart power.&amp;nbsp; And, again, I thought this was gratifying to know that ideas which had been developed in an abstract sense were actually doing something in policy.&amp;nbsp; I had seen ideas that I developed in the abstract affect policy when I served in government, but they were ideas that I had taken in with me. The idea, though, that you can sit in the Academy and write something and then it does pervade a broader policy community, that I think is a more intriguing question as to when it takes off and when it does not.&amp;nbsp; Who knows what effect all this has had on policy?&amp;nbsp; There are so many different causes of any given political event, so many different things that people pick up or use or do not use and discard for a variety of motives and reasons that nobody can claim that their ideas have had a strong or powerful effect.&amp;nbsp; But it is nice to see at least that they are being given lip service in the sense that they are coming out of the lips of people who are in a place to do something with power.&amp;nbsp; </p>
<p>But, finally, I did publish this piece in The Washington Post on April 13th, which was called Scholars on the Sidelines, which noted that perhaps not for economists but for academic political scientists that there were fewer and fewer who were actually serving, who were transferring ideas in Dick Neustadt&amp;rsquo;s idea of&amp;nbsp; In-and-Outers than there had been in the past, and that probably the fault for this was not the Obama administration or the government, but was something in the Academy, the way we approached the question of the usefulness of our ideas and whether we cared about the usefulness of our ideas or at least translating them into accessible terms.&amp;nbsp; And that does bother me.&amp;nbsp; That, I think, is a problem that we as a profession need to think about.&amp;nbsp; So while I am pleased that there has been lip service to some of my ideas, I would be much more satisfied if there were a greater concern in the Academy to make sure that ideas were making this world a better place.</p>
<p>Thank you very much for the honor.</p>
<p><em><a target="_blank" href="http://www.aapss.org/section.cfm/3/15/1261/1344">Joseph S. Nye, Jr.</a> is the University Distinguished Service Professor at the Harvard Kennedy School of Government. These remarks were prepared for his induction as the 2009 Theodore Roosevelt Fellow of the American Academy of Political and Social Science.</em></p>...]]>
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	<entry>
		<title>Lawrence Sherman: The Need for Research to Keep from Causing Crime with Punishment</title>
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		<modified>2010-03-02T04:11:17Z</modified>
		<issued>2009-05-19T12:00:00Z</issued>
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		<created>2009-05-19T12:00:00Z</created>
		<summary type="text/plain"><![CDATA[                                                     AAPSS Fellow Dr. Lawrence Sherman              ]]></summary>
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			<email>jodland@sas.upenn.edu</email>
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		<![CDATA[<p>
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            <td> <img width="250" height="167" align="left" src="/Image/Sherman.jpg" alt="Lawrence Sherman" class="authorphoto" /></td>
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            <td><a target="_blank" href="http://www.aapss.org/section.cfm/3/15/1261/1345">AAPSS Fellow Dr. Lawrence Sherman</a></td>
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            <td><span style="font-weight: bold;">  Download:</span><br /> <a href="http://www.aapss.org/uploads/sherman0507.mp3">Right-click and Save As Podcast (MP3)</a><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"> Listen Now:</span><br /> </td>
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<p>Thorsten Sellin was a long-term editor of The Annals of the AAPSS and a criminologist who did the first empirical studies of the death penalty. He concluded from his work that the death penalty had no effect on crime rates. While we still don&amp;rsquo;t really know the answer to that question, his early work did establish the mold for assessing the effects of public policies on crime. Thus, it is a great honor for me to be elected as a Thorsten Sellin Fellow. </p>
<p>My own work on crime began at the height of the Vietnam War, when my local draft board approved my request to serve as a conscientious objector by working in the New York City Police Department. I didn&amp;rsquo;t carry a gun or make arrests. But I did spend a lot of time in police cars. The draft board said they approved my work as a civilian analyst because they thought I might get killed.</p>
<p>But I survived to evaluate natural experiments in three cities that had restricted police powers to shoot and kill. My research was cited in the 1985 Supreme Court decision abolishing the Common Law power to kill fleeing suspects. Their decision was based, in part, on my findings that such restrictions caused no increase in either violent crime or attacks on police. In the aftermath of that decision, police killings of U.S. citizens, and particularly African-Americans, were reduced by hundreds of people per year.[pagebreak]</p>
<p>I went on to conduct field experiments on a wide range of police practices, including stop-and-frisk tactics against guns. My first experiment in Kansas City showed a 50 percent reduction in gun crimes compared to a similar area where the practice was withheld. This result was replicated six times in other cities, all showing less murder or gunshot wounds. Gun patrols were then widely adopted across the U.S. in the 90s; gun arrests soared, and the national homicide rate dropped by almost half. </p>
<p>Some observers say our research on gun crime may have helped reduce murder. A more important link might be to our discovery that over 60 percent of reported crime occurs at just 3 percent of street addresses. This finding led to some of the largest police departments restructuring their basic patrol operations around the &amp;ldquo;hot spots&amp;rdquo; where crime is concentrated rather than around large patrol beats. Police were given further encouragement for that policy by our randomized trial in Minneapolis. That experiment doubled patrol time in 55 high-crime hot spots while leaving it unchanged in 55 others, measuring patrol independently with systematic observation. In the hot spots with more patrol, we found two-thirds less crime than in the hot spots left alone.</p>
<p>Two decades later, the impact of that research remains limited to a few big agencies like New York. Most police departments still waste police patrols in low-crime areas, and put too little patrol into hot spots. Like doctors refusing to wash their hands, police remain resistant to evidence-based practice. So do state legislatures which use research findings that they like but ignore findings that they don&amp;rsquo;t like&amp;mdash;including those from my research on policing domestic violence.</p>
<p>My domestic violence research produced the change in public policy that I regret the most, even though it was the methodological breakthrough I value the most. With the unanimous consent of City Councils in Minneapolis and Milwaukee, I organized police to follow random assignment of arrest or mediation in each case of misdemeanour domestic assault. That Minneapolis experiment became the first randomized trial of arrest in the history of policing. Even better, the experiment had a clear finding of &amp;ldquo;what worked.&amp;rdquo; We found that there was half as much repeat violence after arrest as after mediation. </p>
<p>That result was just what a large advocacy community wanted to hear. As an Assistant Attorney General of the U.S. said to me, &amp;ldquo;it&amp;rsquo;s a good thing your study got the right result, because otherwise I would have attacked your methodology.&amp;rdquo; Our initial &amp;ldquo;arrest works best&amp;rdquo; finding led to 28 state legislatures, and several other nations, passing laws that mandated arrest in all such cases. This was despite our cautions that the Minneapolis experiment should be replicated before any policy was mandated. </p>
<p>Five years later we were able to repeat the Minneapolis experiment in Milwaukee. There we found the bad news: that while arrest worked best for suspects who had jobs, it backfired terribly for suspects who were job-less. Three independent experiments then confirmed this result: that arrest of unemployed men doubled their level of domestic violence. Yet neither legislatures nor the news media took any notice of this strong evidence against mandatory arrest.&amp;nbsp; </p>
<p> These results finally drove me from doing experiments to building theory. The result was my defiance theory, that criminal sanctions increase crime whenever the people punished are weakly bonded to society and view their punishers as illegitimate. This theory fits the facts of a wide range of criminogenic effects, from arrests of juveniles to the negative effects of British crackdowns on Northern Irish terrorism.</p>
<p>Defiance theory has also been central to our field tests of restorative justice meetings between offenders and their victims, designed to increase the legitimacy of punishment with the emotional impact on offenders of hearing their victims describe the harm offenders caused. In fifteen years on three continents, my colleague Heather Strang and&amp;nbsp; I have completed 12 randomized tests of this police-led practice. Our best results are from 7 controlled trials in the UK, which produced an 8-to-1 return on investment in the costs of crime prevented by restorative justice. Yet even our finding of 27 percent fewer criminal convictions after restorative justice has failed to move the UK government to make use of our results, which we found with their money. At least we can assure the Jerry Lee Foundation and other co-funders of the research that this new approach meets almost any definition of an &amp;ldquo;evidence-based practice.&amp;rdquo;</p>
<p>As more of a hedgehog than a fox, I have seen public policy embrace some but not all of the three big ideas reflected in my work: experiments, concentrations, and legitimacy. The first big idea is that to the extent possible, public policies need to have solid randomized experiments as the standard for what is now quite loosely called &amp;ldquo;evidence-based practice.&amp;rdquo; The 1997 Report to the U.S. Congress I led on &amp;ldquo;What Works and What Doesn&amp;rsquo;t&amp;rdquo; in preventing crime adumbrated a similar message in President Obama&amp;rsquo;s inaugural address on all government spending. Since then a small industry has been established to systematically review evidence of crime prevention program effectiveness. </p>
<p>The second big idea is that crime is heavily concentrated in a skewed distribution best known as the &amp;ldquo;power few.&amp;rdquo; In the past two decades, policies from policing to parole have slowly invested more in places and people that are high-risk and less in those that are low-risk. But until the evidence of risk is linked to evidence of program outcomes, the use of risk analysis per se may do little good. Untested policies based solely on risk may be no better than those based on tradition or guesswork.</p>
<p>The third idea has had the least effect so far, yet may be the most important. Whatever good it does, criminal justice also causes crime, and a lot of it. One reason for iatrogenic law enforcement may be found in my defiance theory about offenders who view their punishment as illegitimate. But unless we complete a lot more research that is open to that hypothesis, we may continue to cause crime with punishment.</p>
<p>The hedgehog in me says the solution to that problem is idea number 1: better use of better evidence to allocate or withhold spending. So far the Obama administration has encountered stiff opposition to this idea, even in medical practices. Yet the idea is now well-entrenched in the UK&amp;rsquo;s National Health Service. It is also under discussion at the UK&amp;rsquo;s national police agency. We may still see a future in which criminology has more impact on policy than at present, especially if it can reach the public to affect politics as well as policy.</p>
<p>I take comfort from the story of James Lind, the doctor whose experiments found a cure for scurvy. Despite the huge cost of this disease to the British navy, it took over 40 years to adopt his recommendation to hand out limes every day to British sailors. As Senator Moynihan once said, politics is not for the short-winded. Neither is research on public policy.</p>
<p><em><a href="http://www.aapss.org/section.cfm/3/15/1261/1345" target="_blank">Lawrence W. Sherman</a> is Director of the Jerry Lee Center of Criminology at the University of Pennsylvania and Wolfson Professor of Criminology at the University of Cambridge, where he is a Fellow of Darwin College. These remarks were prepared for his induction as the 2009 Thorsten Sellin Fellow of the American Academy of Political and Social Science.</em></p>...]]>
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	<entry>
		<title>Joe Nye on the Obama Administration: â¬SCombining hard and soft power and projecting a sense of vision and a sense of hope.â¬ý</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="http://blog.aapss.org/index.cfm?CommentID=76" />
		<modified>2010-03-02T04:11:17Z</modified>
		<issued>2009-05-12T10:37:55Z</issued>
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		<created>2009-05-12T10:37:55Z</created>
		<summary type="text/plain"><![CDATA[The following are excerpts from an interview between Trudy Rubin and Joseph Nye, Jr.]]></summary>
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			<email>jodland@sas.upenn.edu</email>
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		<![CDATA[(<em>The following are  excerpts from an interview between Trudy Rubin, Worldview columnist for The Philadelphia Inquirer, and Joseph Nye, Jr. Professor at  the Harvard Kennedy School  of Government, which took place in February 2009.)</em>
<p><strong>Trudy Rubin</strong>: Professor Nye, let&amp;rsquo;s start with a definition; what is soft power?</p>
<p><strong>Joseph Nye: </strong>Power  is the ability to affect others to get what you want. There are three ways you  can do it: you can threaten people with coercion  (sticks), you can pay them, induce them with carrots, or you can get them to  want what you want, and that ability to attract people to get what you want  through attraction is soft power. And the extent to which you can use soft  power, you can save a lot on carrots and sticks. <strong></strong></p>
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            <td align="center"><a target="_new" style="font-size: 110%; font-weight: bold;" href="http://video.ksg.harvard.edu:8080/ramgen/press20090212nye.rm">Play Video</a></td>
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            <td align="center">To watch this video, your computer will need Real Player.  To download and install this free player, visit <a target="_new" href="http://www.real.com">http://www.real.com</a>.</td>
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<p><strong>TR:</strong> In the Bush administration, there was a lot of disdain  toward the very concept of soft power. I think Donald Rumsfeld once said he  didn&amp;rsquo;t know what it meant. And during that same period America&amp;rsquo;s image  abroad went down according to all the poles. So, was Rumsfeld right?&amp;nbsp; Does it really matter?</p>
<p><strong><strong>JN:</strong> </strong>I think that it  does matter, if you think of what the Bush administration tried to do with  their hard power, including invading Iraq. We have become so unpopular  in Turkey that the Turkish  Parliament wouldn&amp;rsquo;t allow the 4th Infantry Division to go across Turkey and enter Iraq from the north. So the loss of  our soft power in Turkey,  actually interfered with our hard power, and that is a clear case where  Rumsfeld&amp;rsquo;s not understanding of soft power was expensive. <strong> </strong></p>
<p><strong>TR</strong>: So when my readers write me, and they say, &amp;ldquo;why  should we care about public opinion abroad?&amp;rdquo; they&amp;rsquo;re missing something?</p>
<div id="boxRelated">
<div class="titleRelated">Related Content</div>
<a href="http://ann.sagepub.com/cgi/reprint/616/1/94" target="_blank">AnnalsLink: &amp;quot;Public Diplomacy and Soft Power&amp;quot; [pdf]</a> </div>
<p><strong>JN:</strong>&amp;nbsp; They&amp;rsquo;re  missing something because public opinion abroad creates either an enabling or  disabling environment. If being pro-American is a kiss of death for a foreign  leader because public opinion is angry at the United States, their leader is less  able to give the Americans what he or she wants, so it does cost.[pagebreak] </p>
<p><strong>TR:</strong> Is there a new relevance to soft power in an age where  our biggest security threats are asymmetrical, and come from non-state actors  like Islamist terrorist groups?</p>
<p><strong>JN:</strong> Very much so.&amp;nbsp; If  you think of the threats that we face, many of them are ones that you cannot  deal with directly with military force. Take transnational terrorism. Yes,  force is part of the answer. You have somebody like Osama Bin Laden, you are  never going to attract him, and you have to kill or capture him. But the key  question is the mainstream Muslims. Is Bin Laden going to be able to recruit  them or are they going to restrain themselves and not fall into his trap, and  that is where soft power comes in. You cannot prevail against transnational  terrorism if you are taking positions which make it easy for the Bin Ladens of  this world to recruit from the mainstream. </p>
<p><strong>TR:</strong> I want to come back to that point of whether it&amp;rsquo;s  image or policy positions. But before we get there, I just want to talk a  little bit about Barack Obama and soft power. You wrote that, &amp;ldquo;It&amp;rsquo;s difficult  to think of any single act that would do more to restore America&amp;rsquo;s soft  power than the election of Obama to the Presidency.&amp;rdquo; Now that he is president  do you see signs of a change as he is beginning to do things that shift our  image, change the symbols, and is there more you are waiting to see?</p>
<p><strong>JN:</strong> As a top  British politician told me right after the election, the United States is a unique country.&amp;nbsp; That is, in a sense by electing an African  American President, we changed our image in the minds of billions of people.  And that did a lot to restore the American&amp;rsquo;s dream and make us attractive  again. But Obama is going to have to follow that symbolism with policy. And if  the policies are unattractive, the election alone won&amp;rsquo;t be sufficient.</p>
<p><strong>TR:</strong> But you point to something, which is the shift in America's image, and obviously the election of an  African American affects that...I just came back from the Davos World Economic  Forum where United States  was the symbol of what not to do, and our competency was in doubt. Has the  economic crisis really affected our image and our ability to project a presence  that other people want to imitate?</p>
<p><strong>JN:</strong> It clearly has been costly to us, not just  economically but also in terms of our soft power. The Wall Street Model, which  was the envy of everybody in the economic area, has collapsed; there are no  more investment banks for example. But I think what the long-run costs will  look like depend on how well we both recover in terms of not only the real  economy, but also what sort of frame we set up for regulations of the financial  institutions. If in, say, 3-5 years we've done that well, I think we can  recover from the losses that we've suffered in the last year. </p>
<p><strong>TR:</strong> When you look at those aspects of America that  people used to want to emulate-- economy, culture, democracy--how does that  stand now? For example, democracy. President Bush pushed democratization and  famously in Iraq  tried to impose it through invasion. Is our democracy, besides our economy,  still an object that other people want to imitate?</p>
<p><strong>JN:</strong> I think many people had their doubts during the Bush  administration. They felt that the way we were treating civil liberties in  response to terrorism, the presence of Guantanamo,  these things called in question our democracy. I think the fact that we had an  election in 2008, which led to such a surprise, the fact that an African  American with a strange sounding name could rise from nowhere and become  President. I think that restored a lot of faith in American democracy. But the  key questions are going to be whether we follow up on that election with other  policies. I think President Bush spoke a lot about democracy, I'm sure he  believed in it, but there's a big gap between a vision which is high in  sounding but impractical, and a vision which is something you can implement. I  think President Bush and his effort to impose democracy coercively were a  failure, and that had a cost for us. To the extent that we support democracy  and support civil society and groups in other countries, who move in that  direction, I think that's more natural and more likely to improve our soft  power.</p>
<p><strong>TR:</strong> Do you think that Obama's announcement that he intends  to close Guantanamo  and that he will not countenance torture will have an impact-- has had an  impact?</p>
<p><strong>JN:</strong> I think that definitely has an impact. Now there are  still some hard questions left. What do you do with some of these people who  are out to kill us? You can't just let them go, it's not clear you can put them  through the normal court system. Some people say you can, others say not, but  the one thing you can make clear is that there should be a situation where they  have an independent judicial review. That the executive branch shouldn't be  judge, jury, and executioner. And that in our tradition of separation of  powers, having a framework after Guantanamo,  where people have some degree of judicial review, is important for the values  we stand for. The same is true with the present statement on torture, we  torture the word &amp;quot;torture&amp;quot; in the way we applied it in the Bush administration,  and now we've got a pretty clear statement that, for example, water boarding is  torture.</p>
<p><strong>TR:</strong> And can you see signs that this is already improving or  changing the way those abroad are looking at us as opposed to the way they did  during the Bush years?</p>
<p><strong>JN:</strong> There are some public opinion poll results that suggest  positive reactions to this, but I think we're going to wait to see. Public  opinion goes up and down, it's volatile, and on the other hand it does trend  in, you can take averages over time and see whether the trends that are short,  or trends that are continuous, or whether they are flips.</p>
<p><strong>TR:</strong> Let's talk about how soft power can be used in practical  terms and how it meshes with hard power, which is a combination that you called  &amp;quot;smart power.&amp;quot; Let me just ask you to give an example, say how would soft power  be relevant to Obama policy on Iran?</p>
<p><strong>JN:</strong> Iran is not going to be solved by  soft power alone. Actually many things are not solved by soft power alone, North Korea  being another example. But to the extent that you attract others and get  support, you may contribute to the solution. So if American soft power is  strong in Europe, in the Middle East, and other areas; we're more likely get  support for the kinds of sanctions that may be necessary to try to push Iran in the  direction of making compromises on its nuclear program. And to some extent the  ability of the Americans to attract a younger generation inside Iran may help in Iran in the elections, to produce  Khatami instead of Ahmadinejad, the current  President. So soft power isn't the sole solution, but it can contribute.</p>
<p><strong>TR:</strong> And again, say on the question of reaching out to the  Muslim world, on the one hand we have the images of Gaza, which is linked to  United States by Israeli policy, on the other hand we have President Obama  making a speech, or giving an interview right away to an Arab television  station, and promising soon, if not in his first hundred days, to visit a  Muslim capital. Again, do you think soft power well used in this instance can  make a difference? </p>
<p><strong>JN:</strong> I think it can make some difference. Our support for Israel is definitely going to be  unpopular in many Arab countries, but it doesn't mean we're going to change  that support. On the other hand there are things we can do such the President  has done with the interview Al Arabiya, his statement  about a visit and so forth, which can at least counter balance some of the  unpopularity of our view of supporting Israel. </p>
<p><strong>TR:</strong> One thing that has interested me a lot is the speeches  that Secretary Gates has been giving about the need to complement hard power  with soft power. You don't usually expect this from a Secretary of Defense, and  he has been very adamant that there has to be a civilian complement to the  military aspect of our power. He said recently on his speech that he wanted &amp;quot;a  dramatic increase in the civilian instruments of national security&amp;quot; among which  he included diplomacy, foreign aid, civic action, reconstruction, and  development. He also talked about strategic communications; I guess he means  public diplomacy. Now the Bush administration made a big priority of public  diplomacy, but it didn't seem to win many heart and minds especially in the Middle East. How can we do better, what did they do  wrong, and what should we be doing differently?</p>
<p><strong>JN:</strong> Bob Gates' speech in Kansas in 2007, it was really quite a  remarkable statement. He said we have to invest in our soft power, and this may  be odd for the Secretary of Defense to plead for resources in the state  department, but that's what we need. And I think he is right, the trouble with  public diplomacy I think in much of the Bush administration was that they saw  it as a spin or selling, and people become suspicious of that. If something  looks like propaganda people don't trust it, it loses credibility. You think of  public diplomacy, it runs on a spectrum between telling and listening, and some  of the most effective dimensions of public diplomacy are in the middle, where  you have exchanges, where people are both listening and saying. And I think  what Bob Gates is getting at, is that there are whole series of instruments,  and that just spin or propaganda isn't the most effective or another way of  putting it. The best propaganda is not propaganda. </p>
<p><strong>TR:</strong> This certainly comes to mind when you think of the way  that we've been reaching out to the Arab world in terms of communications. For  example Alhurra, the TV station that we set up to reach out doesn't seem to have  much of an impact at all.</p>
<p><strong>JN:</strong> It seems to have some listener shift in Iraq;  it tends to preach to the converted. But on my visits to the Middle East when  I've asked people who were basically pro-American, do they listen to Alhurra,  and they tell me &amp;quot;no,&amp;quot; they just regard it as American propaganda.</p>
<p><strong>TR:</strong> Should American officials be appearing more in Al Jazeera or certainly on Al Arabiya, the station to which President Obama gave that  interview?</p>
<p><strong>JN:</strong> Yes, all of the above, including Alhurra as well, but you  can't restrict yourself just to our own wholly owned subsidiary. We should be  getting out our message on many different forms of communication, including the  stations you've mentioned and also using the Internet more effectively.</p>
<p><strong>TR:</strong> I was going to ask you about that, obviously that's the  medium that the young people of the world are using, and Jihadi website  certainly have a huge audience. Do we do enough to reach out via the Internet  to those audiences? Young Muslims?</p>
<p><strong>JN:</strong> I don't think we have done nearly enough. It's  generational; I mean the large majority of the populations in Muslims countries  aren't going to be using the Internet everyday. But among the younger  generation who are the ones who are most vulnerable to recruitment, many of  them do. And we have to be using the Internet much more effectively to  communicate there. Our enemies do, we've got to do better.</p>
<p><strong>TR:</strong> What's the problem that is so obvious? Is it that we  don't hire enough young people, or do we perhaps need a new agency dedicated to  this? Should we bring back the U.S. Information Agency, which many people think  was a disastrous mistake to disband with those wonderful Libraries, and city  centers around the world, and staff it with only under 35s?</p>
<p><strong>JN:</strong> In  principle that might not be a bad idea, but in practice it's going to take too  much political capital. I think it was a mistake to abolish the U.S. Information  Agency, but you spend an awful lot of political capital on reorganizing things.  I think more effective is to make sure we include a group of younger people who  are attuned to the use of the Internet in our public diplomacy efforts. If you  go back to my metaphor about listening and telling being on a spectrum, the  Internet fits very much in the middle of particularly chat rooms and blogs, and  so forth. These are two ways and we need a group of young, public diplomacy  officers who are adept to that.</p>
<p><strong>TR:</strong> One of the areas where people admired us the most and  wanted to imitate the most was simply in coming to the United States, to study  here, to go on exchanges here or perhaps to immigrate here, or even to visit  here. And as you know, one of the awful aspects of post 9/11 has been this  clamp down on foreign Visas, which have angered many genuinely, fine people who  want to visit here and have been treated terribly. The anti-immigration  sentiment that has flourished, although not necessarily in the White House,  President Bush tried, but he failed to get a better immigration bill, and a  sort of pinch approach to exchanges. Are all of the above the things that we  really need to look seriously at, even though we're at an economic crunch time?</p>
<p><strong>JN:</strong> There is a trade-off between security and openness, but  we've aired I think on too much on the security end. After 9/11, it's natural that we would've  tried to close down on Visas. They noticed that the people who were here were  not foreign students; they had another agenda. There are about 600, 000 foreign  students who come to the United    States. The vast majority of them go home  with much more positive views of the United   States and can serve as people who can explain the United States.  They're more credible when they explain the United States than we are when we  do it through propaganda. So closing down on Visas so that young people don't  come here is shooting ourselves in the foot. And while we need to be careful  about the security side of this trade off we sort of let the pendulum swing too  much in that direction. This is something that both Colin Powell and Condi Rice  did something about. I mean it got really bad after 9/11, through their efforts  it improved somewhat, and we've now recovered to the level that we were in  terms of student Visas from before 911. But let's face it, a lot of people when  they arrive to the United    States, the first people they see are  border-controlled people, and if they're treated rudely or badly, it leaves a  very poor impression.</p>
<p><strong>TR:</strong> Just on this question of student exchanges, have you had  cases with graduate students as I've heard so often from China or from the Middle  East, who went home for a vacation and couldn't come back again, and got  delayed, had to cancel their program?</p>
<p><strong>JN:</strong> Yes we had several cases particularly and immediately  after 9/11 in the year or two after. I've heard less of that recently, so  there's been some improvement.</p>...]]>
		</content>
	</entry>
 

	<entry>
		<title>Children of Immigrants: Exceptional Outcomes?</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="http://blog.aapss.org/index.cfm?CommentID=75" />
		<modified>2010-03-02T04:11:17Z</modified>
		<issued>2009-04-01T11:03:08Z</issued>
 		<id>tag:blog.aapss.org,2010:75</id> 
		<created>2009-04-01T11:03:08Z</created>
		<summary type="text/plain"><![CDATA[Immigrants and their children make up almost a quarter of the population of the United States today,]]></summary>
		<author>
			<name>AAPSS Blog</name>
			<url>http://blog.aapss.org/</url>
			<email>jodland@sas.upenn.edu</email>
		</author>
			
		<content type="text/html" mode="escaped" xml:lang="en" xml:base="http://blog.aapss.org/">
		<![CDATA[<p style="text-align: justify;">Immigrants and their children make up almost a quarter of the population of the United States today, with children of immigrants and immigrant children the fastest growing segment of the American population. Some fear that today&amp;rsquo;s newcomers, rather than assimilating into the mainstream, may form a new underclass and become a burden on the country. Of special concern are Mexican immigrants&amp;mdash;who constitute the largest source of immigration to the United States&amp;mdash;not only because many arrive with very low levels of education, but also because many enter the country without authorization.</p>
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<p style="text-align: justify;">In their volume of <span style="font-style: italic;">The Annals of the American Academy of Political and Social Science,</span> &amp;ldquo;Exceptional Outcomes: Achievement in Education and Employment among Children of Immigrants,&amp;rdquo; Patricia Fern&amp;aacute;ndez-Kelly and Alejandro Portes point out the daunting challenges facing children of immigrants but focus on a small group that has beaten the odds.&amp;nbsp; They look at why some manage to get advanced degrees and high-paying jobs and ask what their success can tell us about the kind of policies that might help more children of immigrants match their achievement. </p>
<p style="text-align: justify;">Patricia Fern&amp;aacute;ndez-Kelly and Alejandro Portes sat down with <span style="font-style: italic;">Annals </span>Executive Editor Phyllis Kaniss for an interview about the volume on February 23, 2009. In the interview, the co-editors described how the combination of a strict upbringing and an a &amp;ldquo;very significant other&amp;rdquo;&amp;mdash;an outside adult influence&amp;mdash;was found to allow children of poorly educated immigrants to succeed in graduating from college. They also pointed up that the government can do more to bolster the availability of these outside adult influences.</p>
<div id="boxRelated">
<div class="titleRelated">Related Content</div>
<a href="http://ann.sagepub.com/cgi/reprint/620/1/12" target="_blank">AnnalsLink: &amp;quot;No Margin for Error: Educational and Occupational Achievement among Disadvantaged Children of Immigrants&amp;quot; [pdf]</a> <br /> <a href="http://ann.sagepub.com/cgi/reprint/620/1/116" target="_blank">AnnalsLink: &amp;quot;The Back Pocket Map: Social Class and Cultural Capital as Transferable Assets in the Advancement of Second-Generation Immigrants&amp;quot; [pdf]</a> </div>
<p style="text-align: justify;">&amp;ldquo;Supporting these programs and expanding them is within the realm of policy, and I think, from our findings, we can wager they would have a significant role in reducing the exceptionality of the cases that we interviewed,&amp;rdquo; Portes noted.</p>
<p style="text-align: justify;">The volume is based on the on third survey of the Children of Immigrants Longitudinal Study (CILS), which followed a large sample of second-generation minority youth &amp;ndash; from early adolescence into adulthood. From those children, about 1,500 were identified as living in the most difficult level of circumstances: coming from single-parent homes in impoverished areas, with parents with low levels of education and humble occupations, and representing members of a group that was negatively stigmatized.</p>
<p style="text-align: justify;">Of those 1,500 children, about 50 eventually graduated from a four-year university. More of the children ended up in prison than graduated from a university.</p>
<p>&amp;ldquo;Most people don&amp;rsquo;t realize how significant circumstance is in shaping the fates of children &amp;ndash; not just immigrant children, but native-born children as well,&amp;rdquo; Fern&amp;aacute;ndez-Kelly said.&amp;nbsp; She pointed out that in such circumstances, parents are unlikely to be able to guide their children on the pathway to college.</p>
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            <td align="left"><img height="146" width="200" align="right" src="/Image/fernandez-kelly_still.jpg" alt="Patricia Fernandez-Kelly" class="authorphoto" /></td>
        </tr>
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            <td align="center">Patricia Fernandez-Kelly</td>
        </tr>
        <tr>
            <td align="left"><img height="146" width="200" align="right" src="/Image/portes_still.jpg" alt="Alejandro Portes" class="authorphoto" /></td>
        </tr>
        <tr>
            <td align="center">Alejandro Portes</td>
        </tr>
    </tbody>
</table>
<p style="text-align: justify;">&amp;ldquo;The parents tried as hard as they could, as most parents do, to instill in their children respect for education,&amp;rdquo; Fern&amp;aacute;ndez-Kelly said. &amp;ldquo;But because they had, themselves, very low levels of education and had endured harsh experience, they often could not guide their children in a way that would result in successful navigation of the hazardous waters of successful educational achievement.&amp;rdquo;&amp;nbsp; </p>
<p style="text-align: justify;">The parents of the children in the study often did not know how to help their child sign up to take the SAT, fill out college applications, or study for higher-level courses.</p>
<p style="text-align: justify;">&amp;ldquo;The parents often made terrible mistakes,&amp;rdquo; Fern&amp;aacute;ndez-Kelly said.</p>
<p style="text-align: justify;">But the parents of the 50 exceptional children who graduated from college did something right. They enforced a strict upbringing, not allowing their children to associate too much with others.</p>
<p style="text-align: justify;">&amp;ldquo;I am not saying this is an ideal form of parenting,&amp;rdquo; Fern&amp;aacute;ndez-Kelly said. &amp;ldquo;But it is, in the case of impoverished families, one effective way to reduce the extent to which their children will fall prey to the lures of peer groups.&amp;rdquo; </p>
<p style="text-align: justify;">In addition, these exceptional children benefited from the influence of a &amp;ldquo;very significant other,&amp;rdquo; like a teacher or guidance counselor, who had the knowledge to guide the children toward higher education.</p>
<p style="text-align: justify;">This factor in influencing the educational outcomes of immigrant children can be changed by &amp;ldquo;policy intervention,&amp;rdquo; Fern&amp;aacute;ndez-Kelly and Portes concluded.</p>
<p style="text-align: justify;">&amp;ldquo;This kind of external assistance may be expanded, perhaps by creating incentives for school personnel, for teachers and counselors, to stereotype less and to provide these opportunities,&amp;rdquo; Portes said.</p>
<p style="text-align: justify;">Even in the current economic recession, Portes said he is hopeful that the government will pay more attention to the educational needs of the children of immigrants.</p>
<p style="text-align: justify;">&amp;ldquo;Sometimes crises bring great opportunities,&amp;rdquo; he said. &amp;ldquo;If out of this stimulus there is serious investment in education and some of those stimulus dollars are put in the direction of supporting schools and supporting voluntary programs and creating jobs for people at that level, it may be that the situation will not be as tragic as it was.&amp;rdquo;</p>
<p> </p>
<div style="text-align: left;">Alejandro Portes is professor of sociology at Princeton University and Director of the Princeton Center for Migration and Development and Patricia Fern&amp;aacute;ndez-Kelly holds a joint position in the Sociology Department and the Office of Population Research at Princeton.</div>
<p>&amp;nbsp;</p>...]]>
		</content>
	</entry>
 

	<entry>
		<title>Does Race Still Matter to African-American Children in Obamaâ¬"s America?</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="http://blog.aapss.org/index.cfm?CommentID=73" />
		<modified>2010-03-02T04:11:17Z</modified>
		<issued>2009-01-26T02:42:33Z</issued>
 		<id>tag:blog.aapss.org,2010:73</id> 
		<created>2009-01-26T02:42:33Z</created>
		<summary type="text/plain"><![CDATA[On January 20, 2009, Barack Obama became the first African American to be sworn in as President of]]></summary>
		<author>
			<name>AAPSS Blog</name>
			<url>http://blog.aapss.org/</url>
			<email>jodland@sas.upenn.edu</email>
		</author>
			
		<content type="text/html" mode="escaped" xml:lang="en" xml:base="http://blog.aapss.org/">
		<![CDATA[<p><img width="500" height="185" alt="President Barack Obama, left" src="image/obama_youth2.jpg" /></p>
<p>On January 20, 2009, Barack Obama became the first African American to be sworn in as President of the United States. In the days that followed, a debate has emerged over whether the nation is entering a new &amp;ldquo;post-racial&amp;rdquo; phase. While actor Will Smith <a href="http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion/personal-reflections.htm">claims</a> that &amp;ldquo;all our excuses have been removed&amp;rdquo; and Rep. James Clyburn of South Carolina declared that &amp;ldquo;every child has lost every excuse,&amp;rdquo; <em style="">New York Times</em> columnist Charles Blow has <a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/24/opinion/24blow.html?_r=2&amp;amp;scp=3&amp;amp;sq=Charles%20Blow&amp;amp;st=cse">strenuously objected</a> that black children face &amp;ldquo;enormous and ingrained obstacles.&amp;rdquo;</p>
<p>Which view is more accurate? How are we to square the election of the nation&amp;rsquo;s first black president with the dire conditions still facing many of the country&amp;rsquo;s black families?<span style="">&amp;nbsp; What precisely are the obstacles still facing black children and how might the election of a black president help lift them?</span></p>
<div id="boxRelated">
<div class="titleRelated">Related Content</div>
<a href="http://ann.sagepub.com/content/vol621/issue1/">AnnalsLink: &amp;ldquo;The Moynihan Report Revisited: Lessons and Reflections after Forty Years&amp;rdquo;</a></div>
<p>A new collection of articles by some of the country&amp;rsquo;s leading sociologists addresses many of these questions, by revisiting the so-called Moynihan Report, Daniel Patrick Moynihan&amp;rsquo;s controversial 1965 assessment of the threats facing the increasing number of black children growing up in families with single, unwed mothers. The volume, edited by Douglas S. Massey and Robert S. Sampson, examines the present-day status of obstacles first identified by Moynihan, while raising new threats that were unimaginable forty years ago. They include </p>
<ul type="disc" style="margin-top: 0in;">
    <li style="" class="MsoNormal">The fact that so many young black males are withdrawing from school at ever earlier ages&amp;mdash;and turning to illegal activities&amp;mdash;because they see no prospects for legitimate jobs in their future. As <a href="http://ann.sagepub.com/cgi/reprint/621/1/47">Harry Holzer</a><strong style=""> </strong>writes<strong style="">, </strong>such ultimately self-destructive behavior both reflects&amp;mdash;and results in&amp;mdash;a<strong style=""> deteriorating labor market for young, black men.</strong></li>
    <p> </p>
    <li style="" class="MsoNormal">The persistence of continued discrimination in hiring facing blacks who are looking for jobs.<span style="">&amp;nbsp; </span>As <a href="http://ann.sagepub.com/cgi/reprint/621/1/70">Devah Pager and Diana Karafin</a><strong style=""> </strong>write<strong style="">, negative racial stereotypes by employers </strong>are<strong style=""> </strong>not likely to be revised even in light of actual, positive experiences with black workers.
    <p> </p>
    </li>
    <li style="" class="MsoNormal">The disadvantages that black children face when they are raised by unmarried mothers. <a href="http://ann.sagepub.com/cgi/reprint/621/1/111">Sara McLanahan</a> describes the<strong style=""> dramatic growth in the proportion of African American children born outside of marriage</strong> (from 24 percent in 1965 to 69 percent in 2000) as well as white children born to unmarried parents<strong style=""> </strong>(from 6 percent in 1965 to 24 percent today) and presents increasing evidence that single parenthood reduces the life chances of children.
    <p> </p>
    </li>
    <li style="" class="MsoNormal">The added concern that <strong style="">many black children have little contact with their fathers</strong>, because both parents have gotten romantically involved with other people in relationships that produce subsequent children. <a href="http://ann.sagepub.com/cgi/reprint/621/1/149">Kathryn Edin, Laura Tach, and Ronald Mincy</a> present research that this &amp;ldquo;multi-partner fertility,&amp;rdquo; contrary to the stereotype of the &amp;ldquo;hit and run father,&amp;rdquo; is what leads men become less involved with their offspring over time, with devastating effects on the abandoned children.
    <p> </p>
    </li>
    <li style="" class="MsoNormal">The fact that so high a percentage of black children have parents who are in prison or jail. <a href="http://ann.sagepub.com/cgi/reprint/621/1/221">Bruce Western and Christopher Wildeman</a><strong style=""> </strong>point out that in 2000, 10.4 percent of black children under the age of 10 had a parent in prison or jail, with 60-70 percent of black male high school dropouts born since the mid-1960s now going to prison. Western and Wildeman make clear that the growing number of black children whose parents have been incarcerated will be at greater risk of poverty, violence and following their parents into prison.
    <p> </p>
    </li>
    <li style="" class="MsoNormal">The consequences for black children of facing a world in which most white Americans endorse broad goals of integration and equality but continue to attribute the low socioeconomic status of blacks to their own weaknesses. As <a href="http://ann.sagepub.com/cgi/reprint/621/1/243">Lawrence Bobo and Camille Charles</a> write in describing this <strong style="">shift in racial attitudes</strong>, disadvantaged blacks continue to suffer the effects of white reluctance to support governmental efforts to benefit African Americans.
    <p> </p>
    </li>
    <li style="" class="MsoNormal">The legacy for black children of living in segregated pockets of poverty and disadvantage in the nation&amp;rsquo;s cities. As <a href="http://ann.sagepub.com/cgi/reprint/621/1/260">Robert Sampson</a> writes, the<strong style=""> long-term persistence of neighborhood racial inequality,</strong> despite gentrification and secular changes, is likely to remain durable over time absent government intervention and play a role in reproducing poverty over time.          </li>
</ul>
<p class="MsoPlainText">What can be done to address these obstacles?<span style=""> </span>The authors offer a number of specific policy interventions for addressing the conditions facing black children, including:&amp;nbsp;</p>
<ul type="disc" style="margin-top: 0in;">
    <li style="" class="MsoNormal">Investing      in early childhood education to counter &amp;ldquo;achievement gaps.&amp;rdquo; </li>
    <li style="" class="MsoNormal">Improving      early links to the labor market, while helping young men avoid early      &amp;ldquo;disconnection.&amp;rdquo;</li>
    <li style="" class="MsoNormal">Increasing      the incentives for less-educated young men to take available jobs.</li>
    <li style="" class="MsoNormal">Reducing      the specific barriers and disincentives faced by ex-offenders and low-income      non-custodial fathers.</li>
    <li style="" class="MsoNormal">Increasing      the Earned Income Tax Credit<span style="">&amp;nbsp; </span>and      extending it to unmarried fathers to increase their attachment to the      labor force. </li>
    <li style="" class="MsoNormal">Investing      in efforts to reduce unwed fertility and strengthen marriage, while      recognizing the need to address underlying social and economic conditions      that prevent low-income couples from maintaining stable unions.</li>
    <li style="" class="MsoNormal">Reducing      incarceration rates by eliminating the sentencing discrepancy between      crack and powdered cocaine and restoring judicial discretion by repealing      mandatory minimum sentencing and three strikes laws while at the same time      funding ex-felon reintegration programs.</li>
    <li style="" class="MsoNormal">Experimenting      with de-concentration of public housing, community policing, and increased      investment in physical infrastructure and quality of schools to ameliorate      the concentrated pockets of poverty and disadvantage in <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">America</st1:place></st1:country-region>&amp;rsquo;s      cities.</li>
</ul>
<p class="MsoPlainText">The full volume of <em style="">The Moynihan Report Revisited</em>, volume 621 of <em style="">The Annals of the American Academy of Political and Social Science</em> is available <a href="http://ann.sagepub.com/content/vol621/issue1/">here</a>.</p>...]]>
		</content>
	</entry>
 

	<entry>
		<title>Terrorism: What the Next President Will Face</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="http://blog.aapss.org/index.cfm?CommentID=70" />
		<modified>2010-03-02T04:11:17Z</modified>
		<issued>2008-09-12T12:00:00Z</issued>
 		<id>tag:blog.aapss.org,2010:70</id> 
		<created>2008-09-12T12:00:00Z</created>
		<summary type="text/plain"><![CDATA[   Trudy Rubin interviews Richard Clarke   The July 2008 volume of The Annals, edited]]></summary>
		<author>
			<name>AAPSS Blog</name>
			<url>http://blog.aapss.org/</url>
			<email>jodland@sas.upenn.edu</email>
		</author>
			
		<content type="text/html" mode="escaped" xml:lang="en" xml:base="http://blog.aapss.org/">
		<![CDATA[<em>&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;Trudy Rubin interviews Richard Clarke<br /><img width="300" height="200" border="0" align="left" class="authorphoto" alt="Trudy Rubin interviews Richard Clarke" src="/Image/Clarke.jpg" /></em>   The July 2008 volume of The Annals, edited by Richard A. Clarke, brought together some of the country&amp;rsquo;s top terrorism experts to draw on their experiences to offer advice to the next president of the United States, who will take office on January 20, 2009.&amp;nbsp; Because of the importance of this subject, all of the articles in Volume 618, &amp;ldquo;Terrorism: What the Next President Will Face&amp;rdquo; will be available online through the inauguration.&amp;nbsp; Recently, <span style="font-style: italic;">Philadelphia Inquirer</span> Worldview columnist Trudy Rubin sat down with several of the contributors to <span style="font-style: italic;">The Annals</span> for conversations about terrorism.&amp;nbsp; The transcripts of those interviews are presented below, along with links to podcasts of the audio recordings.<br /><br />
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            <td style="text-align: center;"><a href="http://blog.aapss.org/index.cfm?commentID=72"><img width="100" height="109" border="0" align="center" class="authorphoto" alt="Graham Allison" src="/Image/graham_allison.jpg" /></a></td>
            <td style="text-align: center;"><a href="http://blog.aapss.org/index.cfm?commentID=69"><img width="100" height="111" border="0" align="center" class="authorphoto" alt="Richard Clarke" src="/Image/Richard_clarke.jpg" /></a></td>
            <td style="text-align: center;"><a href="http://blog.aapss.org/index.cfm?commentID=68"><img width="100" height="111" border="0" align="center" class="authorphoto" alt="Peter Bergen" src="/Image/Bergen2.jpg" /></a></td>
        </tr>
        <tr>
            <td style="text-align: center;"><font size="3"><a href="http://blog.aapss.org/index.cfm?commentID=72">Graham Allison</a></font></td>
            <td style="text-align: center;"><font size="3"><a href="http://blog.aapss.org/index.cfm?commentID=69">Richard Clarke</a></font></td>
            <td style="text-align: center;"><font size="3"><a href="http://blog.aapss.org/index.cfm?commentID=68">Peter Bergen</a></font></td>
        </tr>
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            <td style="text-align: center;"><a href="http://blog.aapss.org/index.cfm?commentID=67"><img width="100" height="109" border="0" align="center" class="authorphoto" alt="Bruce Riedel" src="/Image/Bruce_Riedel.jpg" /></a></td>
            <td style="text-align: center;"><a href="http://blog.aapss.org/index.cfm?commentID=71"><img width="100" height="109" border="0" align="center" class="authorphoto" alt="Kenneth Pollack" src="/Image/Pollack.jpg" /></a></td>
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            <td style="text-align: center;"><font size="3"><a href="http://blog.aapss.org/index.cfm?commentID=67">Bruce Riedel</a></font></td>
            <td style="text-align: center;"><font size="3"><a href="http://blog.aapss.org/index.cfm?commentID=71">Kenneth Pollack</a></font></td>
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<a href="http://ann.sagepub.com/content/vol618/issue1/" target="_blank">AnnalsLink: &amp;ldquo;Terrorism: What the Next President Will Face&amp;rdquo;</a><br />  <a href="http://www.philly.com/inquirer/columnists/trudy_rubin" target="_blank">Trudy Rubin&amp;rsquo;s Interviews and Podcasts</a></div>...]]>
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		<title>Graham Allison: I am More Worried about a Nuclear Attack Today than I was on 9/11</title>
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		<modified>2010-03-02T04:11:17Z</modified>
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		<created>2008-09-11T12:00:00Z</created>
		<summary type="text/plain"><![CDATA[  The following are excerpts from a series of interviews with some of the country's top]]></summary>
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		<![CDATA[<p> <img width="150" height="155" align="right" src="/Image/allison1.jpg" alt="Trudy Rubin interviews Graham Allison" class="authorphoto" /> <span style="font-style: italic;">The following are excerpts from a series of interviews with some of the country&amp;rsquo;s top terrorism experts conducted by Trudy Rubin, Worldview columnist for the Philadelphia Inquirer in conjunction with the July 2008 volume of The Annals, &amp;ldquo;Terrorism, What the Next President Will Face.&amp;rdquo;&amp;nbsp; This interview is with Graham Allison, who was special editor of a related Annals issue in September 2006 entitled &amp;ldquo;Confronting the Specter of Nuclear Terrorism.&amp;rdquo;&amp;nbsp; Allison is the director of Harvard&amp;rsquo;s Belfer Center for Science and International Affairs and author of &amp;ldquo;Nuclear Terrorism: The Ultimate Preventable Catastrophe.&amp;rdquo;</span> &amp;nbsp; </p>
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<br style="font-weight: bold;" /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><br /><br />Trudy Rubin: </span>Let me start by saying that you have been trying for years to alert the public to the danger of nuclear terrorism, which you and many others say is the single most serious threat to our national security.&amp;nbsp; Do you think that threat is less or more dangerous today than when you wrote your book in 2004? <span style="font-weight: bold;"><br /></span><br />
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<a href="http://ann.sagepub.com/content/vol607/issue1/">AnnalsLink: &amp;ldquo;Confronting the Specter of Nuclear Terrorism &amp;rdquo;</a><br /> <a href="http://ann.sagepub.com/content/vol618/issue1/"> AnnalsLink: &amp;ldquo;Terrorism: What the Next president Will Face&amp;rdquo;</a></div>
<span style="font-weight: bold;"><br />Graham Allison:&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;</span>The answer is complicated. But to start with the bottom line, I would say there is a greater risk of nuclear terrorist attack upon the U.S. today than there was on 9/11.&amp;nbsp; Now, there are obviously many positives that have been done since 9/11 and there are some negatives, and trying to make a net judgment requires summing them all up and combining them and making a bottom line judgment.&amp;nbsp; My bottom line would be, more dangerous than earlier, but let me say a word about the positives and the negatives.<span style="">The answer is complicated. But to start with the bottom line, I would say there is a greater risk of nuclear terrorist attack upon the U.S. today than there was on 9/11.&amp;nbsp; Now, there are obviously many positives that have been done since 9/11 and there are some negatives, and trying to make a net judgment requires summing them all up and combining them and making a bottom line judgment.&amp;nbsp; My bottom line would be, more dangerous than earlier, but let me say a word about the positives and the negatives</span><span style="">.</span><span style=""><span style=""><span style=""><span style=""><span style=""><span style=""><span style=""><span style=""><span style=""><span style=""><span style=""><span style=""><span style=""><span style="">[pagebreak]</span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span><a href=""><span style=""><span style=""><span style=""><span style=""><span style=""><span style=""><span style=""><span style=""><span style=""><span style=""><span style=""><span style=""><span style=""><span style=""><span style=""><span style=""><span style=""><span style=""><span style=""><span style=""><span style=""><span style=""><span style=""><span style=""><span style="font-weight: bold;"> <br /><br /></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></a><span style="">On the positive side of the ledger, obviously in the wake of 9/11 everyone is hugely more alert.&amp;nbsp; It is impossible to imagine the day an agent for the FBI writing a report in Phoenix that says there are Arabs here wanting to learn to fly airplanes, but they are not interested in learning to land them; if that report gets back to headquarters lights start blinking whereas they did not on 9/11.&amp;nbsp; Or if a person is captured, as Mr. Atta was before 9/11, and the question is, can the FBI go look at his computer and dump his hard drive and find out what is being plotted or planned, the answer is before 9/11 that was judged too hard to get through the bureaucracy; today that would get through in hours.&amp;nbsp; Police departments, if they see suspicious activity, are much more alert today than they were before 9/11.&amp;nbsp; And even citizens, all of us are more conscious and aware.&amp;nbsp; So I would say that is a big positive, greater consciousness.&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp; Secondly, al Qaeda has been toppled from Afghanistan where it had its headquarters and actually was on the run and maybe even desperate in 2003 and 2004.&amp;nbsp; So it has, in any case, had to move headquarters and it is now operating in effect &amp;ldquo;on the run&amp;rdquo; in a way that it was not before 9/11.&amp;nbsp; So there are a lot of things in the positive column.</span><a href=""><span style=""><span style=""><span style=""><span style=""><span style=""><span style=""><span style=""><span style=""><span style=""><span style=""><span style=""><span style=""><span style=""><span style=""><span style=""><span style=""><span style=""><span style=""><span style=""><span style=""><span style=""><span style=""><span style=""><span style=""><br /><br /></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></a><span style="">On the negative column I would mention three.&amp;nbsp; First, the National Intelligence Estimate and the latest testimony from the National Intelligence officer tells us that al Qaeda has actually reconstituted its leadership and headquarters and training programs, so that the number one, Osama bin Laden, is still operating and the number two, Zawahiri, is still operating but they have moved across the border from Afghanistan to the ungoverned territories of Pakistan.&amp;nbsp; They have reconstituted their headquarters.&amp;nbsp; They provide a lot more public communication than they did before 9/11, explaining what they are doing and trying to rally their supporters.&amp;nbsp; And they actually have reconstituted the training camps, so it is said by the National Intelligence Estimate.&amp;nbsp; So the guys that hit us on 9/11 are still in business.&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp; I would say that is very bad news.&amp;nbsp; Secondly, on 9/11 North Korea had, at most, two bombs&amp;rsquo; worth of plutonium and had never conducted a test.&amp;nbsp; In the period after we went to Iraq, North Korea proceeded to build up an arsenal of ten bombs&amp;rsquo; worth of plutonium and to conduct a nuclear weapons test.&amp;nbsp; So North Korea is a potential supplier of nuclear weapons to a terrorist state.&amp;nbsp; And thirdly, Pakistan, which in 2001 was a fledgling nuclear enterprise, has today tripled the amount of nuclear weapons and materials since 2001 and has a government that is at risk of melting down.&amp;nbsp; So when you take all those factors, positives and negatives, when I weigh them up I would say I am more worried about a nuclear terrorist attack today than I was on 9/11.<span style="font-weight: bold;"><br /><br />TR:&amp;nbsp; </span>When we look at the nature of the threat of nuclear terrorism, what exactly are we talking about?&amp;nbsp; Is it potentially a bomb in a truck or a dirty bomb or a stolen weapon?&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp;<span style="font-weight: bold;"><br /><br />GA:&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;</span> Again, a good question.&amp;nbsp; When I think of nuclear terrorism, I think of a nuclear mushroom cloud enveloping an American city or some other great city of the world, devastating its heart.&amp;nbsp; So think of a nuclear bomb exploding in New York City or Philadelphia or Boston or Washington.&amp;nbsp; Now, how would terrorists get a nuclear bomb?&amp;nbsp; Two ways; the most likely way would be to get a bomb that had been stolen from a state that had made the bomb.&amp;nbsp; In the Nuclear Terrorism book I tell the story of Dragonfire, which is an actual story that occurred in which a month after the attack on New York on 9/11 the President thought on the basis of an intelligence report, that al Qaeda might have a nuclear bomb in New York City and be about to explode it.&amp;nbsp; It turned out to be a false alarm but in that case it was thought that al Qaeda had gotten a nuclear bomb made by the former Soviet Union and brought it to New York.&amp;nbsp; And I would still say that is the most likely way to imagine nuclear terrorism.&amp;nbsp; Secondly, if terrorists did not acquire a nuclear bomb but instead just a football-sized lump of highly enriched uranium made by a state, from that hundred pounds they could make an elementary nuclear bomb, what in the business is now called an IND, an improvised nuclear device analogous to these IEDs, the improvised explosive devices that are being used to kill Americans in Iraq and Afghanistan.&amp;nbsp; So they could, with a hundred pounds of highly enriched uranium and other materials available off the shelf, and the recipe or design that was basically the bomb that was dropped on Hiroshima, make a genuine nuclear explosion that would produce a mushroom cloud that could have a devastating effect upon a city.&amp;nbsp; So that is what I mean by nuclear terrorism, a real bomb with a real mushroom cloud, devastating the heart of one of the great cities.<span style="font-weight: bold;"><br /><br />TR:&amp;nbsp; </span>Can a terrorist really get his hands on an actual weapon?&amp;nbsp; We know that al Qaeda and the leadership have said they want to do that, but are they in any position to do it, or is anyone else actually in position to steal an actual weapon? &amp;nbsp;<span style="font-weight: bold;"><br /><br />GA:&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp; </span>We hope not and I do not think al Qaeda or another terrorist group would successfully conduct a raid upon Russian nuclear weapons or Pakistani nuclear weapons and succeed in stealing them, though obviously we need to worry about possible contingencies.&amp;nbsp; And we have to remember that in the Russian case, a group of Chechen terrorists, including fifty armed fighters, took over a theater in Moscow just a couple of years ago.&amp;nbsp; So I would not say it is a zero chance of them stealing a weapon successfully from a state, but I would say that it is the low chance.&amp;nbsp; The much more likely chance is that a thief or crook inside the system of a nuclear weapons state, think A.Q. Khan, who was the father of the Pakistani nuclear bomb program, decides to go into business for himself, just for money or maybe even for ideological reasons, but I think most likely just corruption; decides to steal a bomb or several bombs and sell them to terrorists.&amp;nbsp; Now, what we do know is that there have been reports of thieves stealing nuclear bombs.&amp;nbsp; We have never found a nuclear bomb outside of Russia that was successfully stolen, and I give thanks for that and I think the programs that the U.S. and Russia have worked on cooperatively over the period since the Soviet Union disappeared have contributed significantly to that.&amp;nbsp; So, one would be thieves steal an actual nuclear bomb.&amp;nbsp; In the case of Pakistan that is a much more frightening thought today than it was seven years ago.&amp;nbsp; Secondly, thieves could steal the fissile material, highly enriched uranium or plutonium, that would provide this hundred pounds, this football-sized lump of material, from which terrorists could make an improvised nuclear bomb, and there we know of many cases in which materials have been stolen by crooks inside the system and sold to people outside of the country.&amp;nbsp; We know actually of more than 1600 such cases that are reported in the IAEA database, including dozens of cases in which either highly enriched uranium or plutonium was stolen, and the person who stole it was eventually apprehended or the material was eventually recovered.&amp;nbsp; Interestingly, none of the cases in which it was highly enriched uranium or plutonium had the material been reported missing before it was actually found.&amp;nbsp; So this would lead one to believe that it is possible that a person working inside, for example the Russian system or the Pakistani system, could, if they chose to do so, successfully steal material from which a bomb could be made and sell it to terrorists.&amp;nbsp; And if this seems an incredible idea, I know you personally are familiar with the story of A.Q. Khan, but maybe your listeners are not.&amp;nbsp; A.Q. Khan is a hero in Pakistan.&amp;nbsp; He is the father of the Pakistani nuclear bomb.&amp;nbsp; He has been under house arrest, though it has been loosened recently. And why under house arrest?&amp;nbsp; Because he had set up what Mohamed ElBaradei, the head of the IAEA, calls the Wal-Mart of nuclear proliferation.&amp;nbsp; He had set up a black market operation in which he sold to Libya, to take one specific example, centrifuges for making enriched uranium, he sold starter material, that is uranium hexafluoride, enough to produce enough highly enriched uranium for a bomb, and even advanced bomb designs for warheads.&amp;nbsp; So he was providing a full-service operation to North Korea, where he was trading to Libya, where he was selling to Iran, where he was selling, providing nuclear materials and nuclear services.&amp;nbsp; Now this is for a person who is the most famous person in Pakistan and who was the father of the Pakistani nuclear bomb program.&amp;nbsp; So this is for an extremely visible person; it is a story that if it was in a movie you could not believe it.&amp;nbsp; But I worry about people much less known, much less notorious than A.Q. Khan who might engage in similar activity.<span style="font-weight: bold;"><br /><br />TR:&amp;nbsp; </span>Now, as you know after the A.Q. Khan scandal broke, the then-leader of Pakistan, General Musharraf, set up a system to safeguard nuclear materials and recently Admiral Mullen, the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs in the U.S., who has gone out to Pakistan several times, said that he had confidence in this system of protecting Pakistan&amp;rsquo;s nuclear weapons and material.&amp;nbsp; I have interviewed General Kidwai, the head of it, and they give a good slide show and many details about all the fail-safes and the lock systems and so forth.&amp;nbsp; Is there reason to believe that this system could be penetrated?&amp;nbsp; And do you think the biggest threat is from an inside colonel who is a secret Islamist? &amp;nbsp;<span style="font-weight: bold;"><br /><br />GA:&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp; </span>Well, that is a very good question and I do remember your interview, or I read the story about it, with Kidwai, the guy that runs the Pakistani program.&amp;nbsp; I think that with American assistance, as well as themselves being shocked and ashamed by what was ultimately exposed about A.Q. Khan, that under Musharraf the Pakistani security arrangements, for their nuclear weapons in particular, improved significantly and I take Mullen&amp;rsquo;s comment to be a serious comment and a considered judgment.&amp;nbsp; So that is mostly, though, about how secure is this system from people outside, and as you say the more worrying problem is the insider who is a colonel or maybe he is just a sergeant, who is in charge of a nuclear weapon or a set of nuclear weapons and who I would say, conceivably because he has Islamist ideological inclinations but maybe even more likely because he is just a crook and he thinks that things are going to hell in Pakistan and he worries about how he and his family are going to survive, and he thinks, &amp;ldquo;Well, gee, if I could get this bomb or this material from which to make a bomb and sell it to somebody for several million dollars, I can make sure that I am going to survive, whatever else happens.&amp;rdquo;&amp;nbsp; And I think particularly as a political system goes through a stage of instability, and I do not think anybody would call the Pakistani government today anything other than highly unstable and even at risk of becoming dysfunctional, under those circumstances people begin to think, &amp;ldquo;How am I going to survive?&amp;nbsp; How is my family going to survive?&amp;rdquo;&amp;nbsp; And to the extent that there are hundreds of people in Pakistan who, by themselves or maybe with one other buddy, decided to steal either a bomb or more likely the material for which to make a bomb, they have an example in A.Q. Khan.&amp;nbsp; What was the worst thing that happened to him?&amp;nbsp; I think they took away a couple of his eighteen houses and kept him under house arrest for some period of time.&amp;nbsp; So I think that is an extremely dangerous possibility.<br /><br />Similarly, I think in Russia, even though the situation is improved significantly under Putin because the system has become somewhat more authoritarian, but in any case considerably more controlling, it is still the case that in Georgia in 2006 a Russian from one of the laboratories that contains hundreds of weapons, of material, brought a sample of highly enriched uranium to sell to what he thought was a buyer to demonstrate that he could produce the rest of the material if the money were to be paid.&amp;nbsp; It turned out in this case that this sale had been penetrated by intelligence, and so the person was captured.&amp;nbsp; But what about the cases in which we may not know that the sale actually occurred? &amp;nbsp;<span style="font-weight: bold;"><br /><br />TR:&amp;nbsp; </span>I wanted to ask you more about Russia.&amp;nbsp; The case that you just mentioned, by the way, that was smuggled via South Ossetia, wasn&amp;rsquo;t it? &amp;nbsp;<span style="font-weight: bold;"><br /><br />GA:&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp; </span>I guess that is right.<span style="font-weight: bold;"><br /><br />TR:&amp;nbsp; </span>And it was Georgian intelligence that penetrated. But speaking of Russia, we have been working with Russia for years on securing weapons and nuclear material under the Nunn-Lugar Cooperative Threat Reduction program, but our relations with Russia have sharply deteriorated over Georgia and other issues.&amp;nbsp; Can we afford not to work with Russia on this?&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp;<span style="font-weight: bold;"><br /><br />GA:&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp; </span>A very, very good question and hard to keep things in perspective.&amp;nbsp; I mean, obviously the events in August in Georgia and South Ossetia and Abkhazia were tragic.&amp;nbsp; There is no doubt the Russians were cruel, brutal, heavy-handed, overreacting.&amp;nbsp; I think there is little doubt that the Georgians actually provoked the fight by attacking, thinking they were going to seize the South Ossetian capital, again in an action that I regard as wildly irresponsible and even delusional.&amp;nbsp; I mean, if you are a small, weak state, picking a fight with a large, resentful bully is a pretty predictable way to get quashed.&amp;nbsp; And I think when we wished and hoped that the Russians would not have so overreacted, but if anybody had asked me to predict the consequences of a Georgian attempt to seize the capital of South Ossetia, I would have said, look for a huge Russian reaction, indeed overreaction.&amp;nbsp; So that is life.&amp;nbsp; But that event I think now will fester and is infecting the relationship overall between the U.S. and Russia, and you can see Americans huffing and puffing and every time we do, the Russians huff and puff even more.&amp;nbsp; Now, where does Georgia rank relative to the securing of Russian nuclear weapons and materials, the prevention of Iran becoming a nuclear weapons state, the elimination of nuclear weapons in North Korea, so if we were standing back and thinking about American national interests first, I think we would recognize that we need, we are dependent upon, deep cooperation with Russia to succeed in preventing the spread of nuclear weapons, that is proliferation, to places like Iran or North Korea or beyond, and similarly to prevent nuclear terrorism, that is the loss or theft of material, either in Russia or other places.&amp;nbsp; Now, fortunately Russians should understand themselves that they have got a huge stake in preventing the loss of a nuclear weapon or material from which a bomb could be made.&amp;nbsp; Back in 2005 after my Nuclear Terrorism book was published I went to Moscow and actually gave a briefing in the Kremlin on nuclear terrorism, in which I produced for them this target map that I did for the website that was put up in conjunction with the Nuclear Terrorism book, where you can put in your own zip code and see what the Dragonfire bomb would do in your own neighborhood.&amp;nbsp; So I showed them a bomb in Red Square and told them, and I believe this is exactly right, that if the Chechen terrorists who took over the theater in Moscow or who killed the schoolchildren earlier, got a nuclear bomb in Russia they are not going to bring that bomb first to New York or Boston or Washington.&amp;nbsp; Russians should think about Russian national interests first, and Russian national interests should drive them to do everything feasible to do to prevent terrorists getting a bomb or material.&amp;nbsp; But the program that you refer to, the Nunn-Lugar program, has been one in which we have helped them over now sixteen years in an extremely successful program and one that has actually been very well executed by Secretary Sam Bodman, the current Secretary of Energy in the Bush Administration, to the point that if all goes well, by the end of this year, the end of 2008, the work plan that was agreed to by President Bush and President Putin will actually have been completed.&amp;nbsp; And we are looking to a transition in this activity to the point where by 2012 Russia will be responsible for this entirely on its own.&amp;nbsp; But I think this working cooperatively with Russia on the things that matter more, both to us and to them, should come first and we should try to look at the Georgian issue, not apologizing for Russia and not failing to criticize them for actions that we think are inappropriate, but we should nonetheless distinguish between things that matter more to us and things that matter less.<span style="font-weight: bold;"><br /><br />TR:&amp;nbsp; </span>Just a point of information, if the program is successfully concluded by the end of 2008, where does that mean Russia stands in terms of securing its fissile material and weapons?&amp;nbsp; What percentage of them would be secure? &amp;nbsp;<span style="font-weight: bold;"><br /><br />GA:&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;</span> The answer is slightly complicated, but at Bratislava at a summit of Putin and Bush in February of 2005, they agreed on a work plan that covered about 75 percent of the weapons and materials.&amp;nbsp; That left out their nuclear weapons fabrication facilities where there is a huge amount of material and weapons, but where presumably, and I think on the basis of independent assessments we have reason to believe, the Russians have done a good job themselves of securing the material.&amp;nbsp; So if the work plan is completed by 2008 for 75 percent of the sites the security will have been provided to a level of what is called comprehensive upgrades, which is not as good as the gold standard that I would urge, but which is quite good and certainly hugely better than it was way back in 1991 when I started working on this problem.&amp;nbsp; So for the remaining 25 percent of the material, this is at sites which, as I say, we have reason to believe they are working on securing themselves, so I would say we cannot quite put a bow around the box and declare victory as this requires eternal vigilance.&amp;nbsp; But I would say this would be a huge success and it is a huge success for initially the first Bush administration and then the Clinton administration and then, finally, this administration.&amp;nbsp; Now where we need the Russians even more is in recovering material from which bombs could be made that was left in places outside of Russia but was provided by Russia back during the Cold War.<span style="font-weight: bold;"><br /><br />TR:&amp;nbsp; </span>You mean in former Soviet republics that became states?&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp;<span style="font-weight: bold;"><br /><br />GA:&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;</span> In former Soviet republics, so like Belarus.&amp;nbsp; In Belarus there are thousands of bombs&amp;rsquo; worth of material, which should not be in Belarus.&amp;nbsp; Until the summer before last there were three bombs&amp;rsquo; worth of material in Uzbekistan.&amp;nbsp; There should be no material in Uzbekistan, so there is a program that the U.S. and Russia have been cooperating and working in which we together go to states and persuade them that material that was left at a research reactor or some other facility should be returned to Russia and, similarly, material that the U.S. provided to other states is being recovered and brought back to the U.S.&amp;nbsp; That program, in both cases, has gone slowly and should be dramatically accelerated.&amp;nbsp; But in any case, it is an area where it requires the cooperation of the two parties.&amp;nbsp; And then finally, for states that are nuclear wannabes, like Iran, Russia&amp;rsquo;s cooperation is essential to a successful strategy for preventing Iran reaching its nuclear goal line. &amp;nbsp;<span style="font-weight: bold;"><br /><br />TR:&amp;nbsp; </span>You have talked a little bit about prevention here in discussing Russia and the need to continue cooperation and even accelerate it.&amp;nbsp; Let us talk a little bit more about prevention.&amp;nbsp; Is there more that could be done in the case of Pakistan to safeguard materials? &amp;nbsp;<span style="font-weight: bold;"><br /><br />GA:&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp; </span>Yes, indeed, and actually let me take that as an opportunity to kind of put the big picture and then I will do the specifics of Russia and Pakistan.&amp;nbsp; In this book Nuclear Terrorism, the most important part of the book is the second part and it refers to the subtitle, because the book is called&amp;nbsp; Nuclear Terrorism:&amp;nbsp; The Ultimate Preventable Catastrophe.&amp;nbsp; And the second proposition in the book is that this is a preventable catastrophe in the sense that there exists a feasible, affordable agenda of actions that, if taken, would reduce the likelihood of a nuclear bomb exploding in one of our cities to nearly zero.&amp;nbsp; So if, God forbid, nuclear terrorism occurs, which I believe on the current trajectory it will, and there is a 9/11 Commission-like report that examines what we did and failed to do before this explosion, it will conclude that the nuclear terrorist attack occurred for wont of things that we could have done but that we simply did not do or did not do fast enough. &amp;nbsp;<span style="font-weight: bold;"><br /><br />TR:&amp;nbsp; </span>So make a list. &amp;nbsp;<span style="font-weight: bold;"><br /><br />GA:&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp; </span>Now, I try to organize the strategy for prevention under what I call a doctrine of three no&amp;rsquo;s.&amp;nbsp; No loose nukes, no new nascent nukes, and no new nuclear weapon states.&amp;nbsp; Let me just say a word about each. &amp;nbsp;<span style="font-weight: bold;"><br /><br /></span>No loose nukes says all nuclear weapons and all nuclear material everywhere, in Russia, in Pakistan, everywhere, is locked up as good as gold in Fort Knox.&amp;nbsp; How much gold does the U.S. lose from Fort Knox?&amp;nbsp; Zero.&amp;nbsp; I mentioned the briefing I gave at the Kremlin back in 2005, where I said to them with all the chaos, all the confusion, all of the corruption in Russia with the collapse of the Soviet Union, how many of the icons, the treasures that you keep in the Kremlin armory have gone missing?&amp;nbsp; The answer is zero.&amp;nbsp; So human beings know how to lock up things we do not want people to steal.&amp;nbsp; All weapons and all materials should be locked up as good as gold.&amp;nbsp; That is point one.<br /><br />Point two:&amp;nbsp; No new nascent nukes means no new national enrichment of uranium or reprocessing of plutonium.&amp;nbsp; So only two things from which you can make the explosion that creates the mushroom cloud, highly enriched uranium or plutonium, only states can make these because they require multi-billion dollar large investments over many years.&amp;nbsp; We should say no new national enrichment of uranium or plutonium.&amp;nbsp; And that means Iran, which is trying now to reach the goal line of being able to enrich uranium, should be stopped.&amp;nbsp; And I have a little bit of a suggestion about how to do that.<br /><br />Then, thirdly, no new nuclear weapon states says draw a line under the current eight, do not count North Korea even though maybe it is eight and a half because North Korea is halfway across the list.&amp;nbsp; North Korea is the only self-declared but unrecognized nuclear weapon state.&amp;nbsp; I would not recognize them, I would say our objective has to be to roll them back, to get those ten bombs out of there, and to stop any further proliferation, not in order to grandfather the current nuclear weapon states forever but to stop the bleeding before we deal with the arsenals that we currently have. &amp;nbsp;<br /><br />So if we could imagine a world in which we had achieved no loose nukes, that everything was locked up as good as gold, in which there was no new national enrichment of uranium and plutonium and there were no new nuclear weapon states, I would say the chance of a nuclear bomb exploding in one of our cities would have been shrunk to nearly zero.&amp;nbsp; Now, these are all easy things to say, very hard to do, and there is a long agenda of specific things under each one of these headings, but I think the main message to take away from this is this is a preventable catastrophe.&amp;nbsp; Terrorists like al Qaeda cannot make a nuclear bomb if they do not start with highly enriched uranium or plutonium that was made by a state.&amp;nbsp; So if we can prevent states making any new enriched uranium or plutonium, and lock up or eliminate the enriched uranium and plutonium and the weapons that are powered by these from falling into the hands of terrorists, we can prevent nuclear terrorism.&amp;nbsp; So this is something we can do, and I would say actually we have been doing quite a lot and there is a lot more to do.<br /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><br />TR:&amp;nbsp; </span>Let me ask a specific question.&amp;nbsp; We know that a lot more nuclear power plants are being built and are going online.&amp;nbsp; Of course, Iran claims that that is what we are doing and the experts believe they are trying to create fuel for weapons.&amp;nbsp; But if you are going to limit any new national enrichment or reprocessing of plutonium, then how do you deal with that issue of fuel?&amp;nbsp; Fuel for nuclear reactors, fuel for Iran, which claims all it wants is a nuclear reactor but we do not want them to make their own fuel? &amp;nbsp;<span style="font-weight: bold;"><br /><br />GA:&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp; </span>Very well put.&amp;nbsp; We have now an emerging nuclear renaissance, so it is called, of civilian nuclear energy generation by nuclear power plants.&amp;nbsp; There are a hundred an...]]>
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	<entry>
		<title>Richard A. Clarke: Steps the Next President Can Take to Reduce the Threat of Terrorism</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="http://blog.aapss.org/index.cfm?CommentID=69" />
		<modified>2010-03-02T04:11:17Z</modified>
		<issued>2008-09-10T06:33:53Z</issued>
 		<id>tag:blog.aapss.org,2010:69</id> 
		<created>2008-09-10T06:33:53Z</created>
		<summary type="text/plain"><![CDATA[This interview is with Richard Clarke, national coordinator for security and counterterrorism]]></summary>
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			<name>AAPSS Blog</name>
			<url>http://blog.aapss.org/</url>
			<email>jodland@sas.upenn.edu</email>
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		<![CDATA[<p> <img width="300" height="200" align="right" class="authorphoto" alt="Trudy Rubin interviews Richard Clarke" src="/Image/Clarke2.jpg" /> <span style="font-style: italic;">The following are excerpts from a series of interviews with some of the country&amp;rsquo;s top terrorism experts conducted by Trudy Rubin, Worldview columnist for the </span>Philadelphia Inquirer<span style="font-style: italic;"> in conjunction with the July 2008 volume of </span>The Annals<span style="font-style: italic;">, &amp;ldquo;Terrorism: What the Next President Will Face.&amp;rdquo;&amp;nbsp; This interview is with Richard Clarke, national coordinator for security and counterterrorism for Presidents Clinton and George W. Bush and author of </span>Against All Enemies: Inside America&amp;rsquo;s War on Terror<span style="font-style: italic;">, and </span>Your Government Failed You:&amp;nbsp; Breaking the Cycle of National Security Disasters.&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp; </p>
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<br style="font-weight: bold;" /><span style="font-weight: bold;"><br /><br />Trudy Rubin:</span> You write in <span style="font-style: italic;">The Annals</span> about the need to diagnose the problem of terrorism correctly.&amp;nbsp; Let me go back in history for a moment to your pre-9/11 diagnosis of the problem.&amp;nbsp; You famously wrote about the failure to get it right before 9/11.&amp;nbsp; Can you tell us a little bit about why the Bush administration was unable to appreciate the seriousness of the potential threat?<br />  <br />
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<span style="font-weight: bold;">Richard Clarke:</span>&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp; The leadership of the Bush administration came into office in early 2001 having been out of office for eight years.&amp;nbsp; These were all people, experienced people, who had been in the government before and they knew, intellectually, what had happened in the intervening eight years.&amp;nbsp; The Cold War had ended and the Soviet Union as the major threat had gone away.&amp;nbsp; They, however, still thought about major threats purely in the nation-state mode.&amp;nbsp; In other words, they were somewhat preserved in amber from the Cold War.&amp;nbsp; They had left the White House and defense department eight years earlier, after working on the Cold War, working on threats from the Soviet Union.&amp;nbsp; They came back and picked up where they had left off.&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp; They wanted to talk about Star Wars, about the antiballistic missile system, they wanted to negotiate in Moscow; they picked up where they had left off but the world had changed and the world had passed them by.&amp;nbsp; The world was now on where the greatest threats to the United States, active threats, were from individuals and non-state actors.&amp;nbsp; And the Bush leadership could not get their head around that.[pagebreak]<br /><br />   <strong><em><img width="300" height="200" border="0" align="left" src="/Image/Clarke.jpg" alt="Trudy Rubin interviews Richard Clarke" class="authorphoto" /></em> TR:</strong>&amp;nbsp; You tried to warn about that almost from the moment that President Bush took office.&amp;nbsp; What kind of reaction did you get when you tried to make that threat apparent?&amp;nbsp; <br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">RC:</span>&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp; The first reaction I received from the National Security Advisor, Condi Rice, was, this is very strange.&amp;nbsp; She actually said something like, &amp;ldquo;We did not do this kind of thing when I worked on the National Security Council.&amp;nbsp; Your office did not exist when I worked on the National Security Council.&amp;rdquo;&amp;nbsp; And it was more of a curiosity to her that the office now did exist and was the largest office in the National Security Council.&amp;nbsp; I think she truly heard me, as did the Vice President and the President, but they did not understand the importance of what we were saying.<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">TR:</span>&amp;nbsp; If we fast-forward to the present, the startling position that you take in your latest book is that not that much has changed in terms of U.S. preparedness for the current threat, and that the current threat remains much the same.&amp;nbsp; Could you first of all define, diagnose, what is the current threat?&amp;nbsp; <br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">RC:</span>&amp;nbsp; I think the current threat continues, unfortunately, to be in general from fundamentalist, violent, extremist Islamists.&amp;nbsp; And specifically from an organization, a network of organizations, known under the name al Qaeda, in Arabic &amp;ldquo;The Base.&amp;rdquo;&amp;nbsp; Remarkably, seven years after 9/11, ten years after the United States government started seriously trying to combat al Qaeda, al Qaeda is still there.&amp;nbsp; And according to the CIA director, it is still as powerful as it was six years ago, still capable of training people from around the world in a sanctuary in south Asia, and then sending them off around the world to stage attacks, and that includes the possibility of being able to send them, again, to the United States to stage attacks.&amp;nbsp; And it is not just me saying that, that is the message from all the counter-terrorism experts in <span style="font-style: italic;">The Annals</span>, and it is clearly the message from the CIA director and the latest national intelligence estimate.<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">TR:</span>&amp;nbsp; Some experts have claimed that the al Qaeda threat is no longer as potent as it once was.&amp;nbsp; They have said that the threat is more with unconnected grassroots networks, that there is criticism within al Qaeda leadership, including some who are in prison.&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp; Is the threat less, are we overestimating the danger of al Qaeda or not?&amp;nbsp; <br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">RC:</span>&amp;nbsp; I do not think it is any significantly less.&amp;nbsp; I do not think we can grade it with that kind of precision, that we could see whether it was a little bit more or a little bit less.&amp;nbsp; It is about the same.&amp;nbsp; Now, are there individuals who are not members of al Qaeda who nonetheless occasionally go to arms, attack things, build bombs on their own, perhaps spontaneously generate cells?&amp;nbsp; Yes, that happens.&amp;nbsp; But even those people are intellectually and ideologically inspired by the al Qaeda movement.&amp;nbsp; The people who spontaneously create cells and bomb things have read all of the al Qaeda propaganda on the web.&amp;nbsp; And the internet and these websites, these Arabic language websites with video and audio, are very, very persuasive to a certain kind of person.&amp;nbsp; Very well done, very influential.&amp;nbsp; And so if someone sitting in England, or sitting in Germany, who has never been to an al Qaeda meeting, nonetheless reads that kind of propaganda on the internet and becomes inspired and then goes off and commits an act on their own, without being directed specifically to do that, are they al Qaeda or are they an individual actor?&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp; I do not think it makes much difference.<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">TR:</span>&amp;nbsp; So it is important, both symbolically and also important in terms of inspiration and, in some cases, training?&amp;nbsp; <br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">RC:</span>&amp;nbsp; It is both. An ideological, inspirational movement.&amp;nbsp; Bin Laden, especially because he still has not been captured, is an inspirational figure but he would be even if he had been captured and killed.&amp;nbsp; And in addition to that, it is still a real terrorist organization with bombs and guns and training programs and running attacks.<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">TR:</span>&amp;nbsp; So how is it possible, with all the resources that have been expended in the last seven years, that the terrorism threat is still as great as it is today, and that al Qaeda is regenerating itself?&amp;nbsp; <br /><br /><span style="font-style: italic;">RC:</span>&amp;nbsp; Part of the reason is that we have spent most of the resources in the wrong way.&amp;nbsp; We have spent about a trillion dollars in Iraq and, putting aside the partisan political discussion, Iraq really, at the time of 9/11 and for many years prior to that, had not been involved in terrorism directed at the United States and did not really harbor or give sanctuary to people engaged in terrorism against the United States.&amp;nbsp; So we have spent a trillion dollars stopping terrorism frankly that did not exist in Iraq, it existed only after we went in.&amp;nbsp; We should have been spending the money in places like Afghanistan, in places like Pakistan, and frankly in places like Jordan and Morocco and elsewhere.&amp;nbsp; There are two kinds of expenditure we should have made.&amp;nbsp; One, to strengthen local security organizations so that they would know how to combat terrorism in ways other than repressive, heavy-handed tactics, because the repressive tactics, we now know statistically, anecdotally, and every other way, the repressive tactics actually increase support from the terrorists.&amp;nbsp; And we should have been spending the resources in some cases, in places like Morocco and Jordan, on economic development, on education, to remove some of the root causes of terrorism.&amp;nbsp; Sometimes terrorism is caused by ideology alone, sometimes it is caused by a combination of ideology and horrendous economic circumstances.<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">TR:</span>&amp;nbsp; Talk a little bit more about the impact of the Iraq invasion on the fight against Islamist terrorists.&amp;nbsp; To begin with, was there ever any connection to the war on terror from Saddam? I believe, in your book, that President Bush said only a year ago &amp;ldquo;We are fighting in Iraq the people who attacked us on 9/11.&amp;rdquo;&amp;nbsp; Was there ever any link?&amp;nbsp; <br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">RC:</span>&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp; The 9/11 Commission looked into this in detail, and their staff, and they came back and said there was never any operational collaboration between Iraq and al Qaeda.&amp;nbsp; Now, that sounds like a very narrow phrase, &amp;ldquo;No operational collaboration.&amp;rdquo;&amp;nbsp; They could not say there was never any contact, because, of course, people in the Iraqi intelligence service wanted to know what al Qaeda was doing, and al Qaeda wanted to operate in areas where the Iraqis had intelligence agents.&amp;nbsp; So, did they ever bump into each other?&amp;nbsp; Sure.&amp;nbsp; But was there any money flow back and forth, any training, any equipment, any joint operations? No, no, no, and no.&amp;nbsp; So the administration has said on different occasions that they recognize this and they accept the verdict of the 9/11 Commission, and yet on other occasions they revert to saying muddled things that leave the impression that Iraq somehow blew up the World Trade Center.&amp;nbsp; <br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">TR:</span>&amp;nbsp; There was a Pentagon review in March 2008, wasn&amp;rsquo;t there, that seemed to be the final word on this?&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp; <br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">RC:</span>&amp;nbsp; Yes, in case the 9/11 Commission had not been enough for you, the Defense Department professional staff went back and looked at all of their records, all of their intelligence, all the information they had been able to gather in Iraq, and there are reams of documents, billions of pages of documents that they found in Iraq after they invaded, and their conclusion is the same as the 9/11 Commission.&amp;nbsp; There was no linkage between al Qaeda on the one hand, Iraq on the other.&amp;nbsp; No linkage between the 9/11 attacks and the country we invaded.<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">TR:</span> Did the Iraq War actually help in the regeneration of al Qaeda?&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp; <br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">RC:</span>&amp;nbsp; I think the Iraq War helped a great deal in the regeneration of al Qaeda.&amp;nbsp; For one thing, it helped in the ideological support for al Qaeda.&amp;nbsp; Bin Laden and al Qaeda had been saying for years the United States wants to invade and occupy oil-rich Arab countries, steal their oil, destroy the countries, debase the Arab people, and there was no evidence for that.&amp;nbsp; And then we did exactly what al Qaeda said we would do.&amp;nbsp; And there was a somewhat universal negative reaction throughout not only the Arab world but the larger Islamic world, that the United States was punishing Islam, that the United States had gone to war with Islam because of 9/11, and had just reached out somewhat randomly and picked a country to invade.&amp;nbsp; So the support for al Qaeda, the financial support, came back.&amp;nbsp; Some of the recruits came back.&amp;nbsp; And then a small terrorist organization that had been in Iraq in areas beyond the control of Saddam Hussein renamed itself al Qaeda in the land between two rivers, al Qaeda in Mesopotamia, and because it now had the name al Qaeda it was able to attract more recruits.&amp;nbsp; And even though it was a small number of people they were highly effective in killing both Americans and other foreigners such as the United Nations personnel.<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">TR:</span>&amp;nbsp; The administration has said, and I believe still says, and I think Senator McCain also says that Iraq is still the central front in the war against terrorism and that al Qaeda itself says this.&amp;nbsp; What is Iraq in the war against terrorism?&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp; <br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">RC:</span>&amp;nbsp; I think Iraq has been a destructive diversion that allowed al Qaeda to regenerate.&amp;nbsp; First it allowed al Qaeda to regenerate this sort of new branch of it in Iraq and kill many Americans.&amp;nbsp; And at the same time it is a diversion that allowed the original al Qaeda back in Afghanistan and Pakistan to regenerate, because our intelligence apparatus and our military apparatus were focused elsewhere.&amp;nbsp; And so instead of extinguishing al Qaeda, the al Qaeda that attacked us, the people in Afghanistan and Pakistan, we literally pulled units, Special Forces units, intelligence units, and equipment out of Afghanistan and sent them to Iraq.&amp;nbsp; And Iraq has never been the central front in the war on terrorism.&amp;nbsp; The central front has always been al Qaeda in Afghanistan and Pakistan.&amp;nbsp; It is again today and all we did by going into Iraq was to create a diversion where we diverted ourselves to give al Qaeda another place to operate against us and time and resources to regenerate.<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">TR:</span>&amp;nbsp; You talk of al Qaeda 2.0 at a time when people thought the organization was getting weaker, the second variant after its full force of 1.0.&amp;nbsp; And then you talk about al Qaeda 3.0, a regenerating organization.&amp;nbsp; How has al Qaeda been able to get to 3.0 in that border area between Pakistan and Afghanistan?&amp;nbsp; <br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">RC:</span>&amp;nbsp; Al Qaeda number one was the group that grew up in Afghanistan and attacked us on 9/11.&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp; Al Qaeda 2.0 was a series of regional organizations throughout the Islamic world, in Indonesia, the Philippines, in Morocco, that were related to al Qaeda.&amp;nbsp; They had gotten money from al Qaeda, they had gotten training from al Qaeda.&amp;nbsp; You could best think about them as regional al Qaeda franchises.&amp;nbsp; They took leadership from al Qaeda in Afghanistan, but when the United States went into Afghanistan in late 2001, that communications link was cut off and so these regional franchises began to operate autonomously and began to do attacks in 2002 and 2003.&amp;nbsp; Now, when I say al Qaeda 3.0, I am referring to the original group that had been in Afghanistan, they have now moved across the border a few hundred miles, they did this in late 2001, but they were spread out, they were hunted down, they were not able to do much for several years.&amp;nbsp; Now, the Pakistani government has struck a deal with people in northwest Pakistan and essentially said, &amp;ldquo;We are not going to send the army and we are not going to send the police up there.&amp;nbsp; You take care of that region yourself.&amp;rdquo;&amp;nbsp; And that has created a sanctuary for al Qaeda to come out of hiding, to establish little camps.&amp;nbsp; They are not the big, enormous military camps that we saw in Afghanistan, because they learned.&amp;nbsp; They learned that we can see those big, enormous military camps on our satellites and we can blow them up from airplanes and from cruise missiles.&amp;nbsp; So they are much smaller facilities, townhouses, villas, small compounds, scattered around in villages, but nonetheless they are there.&amp;nbsp; And al Qaeda is now able to recruit again, now able once again to bring people in to those training facilities from around the world, train them and send them back.&amp;nbsp; The CIA director said a few months ago that you could be standing in the line at Washington&amp;rsquo;s Dulles Airport and some of these people who had been trained in the camps in Afghanistan could be standing next to you in the line, and you would not notice, they would just blend into the crowd.&amp;nbsp; Which means they are bringing in people from Germany and elsewhere, Europeans who believe in the fundamentalist Islamist extremist violence and training them.&amp;nbsp; So I think it is only a matter of time until this new kind of sanctuary in Pakistan is a place from which they launch attacks. <br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">TR:</span>&amp;nbsp; And are there also trained foreign fighters coming back from Iraq?&amp;nbsp; Both moving into the Pakistan sanctuary and back to their home countries?&amp;nbsp; <br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">RC:</span> There are small numbers of people, probably in the hundreds or low thousands, who have fought or experienced jihad, as they like to call it, in Iraq and then either gone to Afghanistan or gone back to Germany, France, and elsewhere.&amp;nbsp; We have clear evidence that some of the attack techniques and some of the weapons that were tried and found useful in Iraq are now showing up in Afghanistan.&amp;nbsp; There is clear evidence of cross pollination between these two wars.<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">TR:</span>&amp;nbsp; Talk about what the next president has to do to dry up support for al Qaeda.&amp;nbsp; And I know there are several different aspects to this, and maybe you can break it down and talk about the most important steps that he will have to take in the short run, because there will not be much of a honeymoon.&amp;nbsp; <br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">RC:</span> We have several of the best academic writers on this subject who have contributed to <span style="font-style: italic;">The Annals </span>of the American Academy and they have a lot of detailed proposals.&amp;nbsp; But it comes down to three or four things.&amp;nbsp; One, the new president has to make clear to the Islamic world that we are not at war with the Islamic world, and that we have nothing against the Muslim religion, nothing against the Muslim people, and we do not want to be at war with them.&amp;nbsp; That is an important message which, if believed, if the new president says it and is believed, will move us a long way to where we need to be.&amp;nbsp; The second thing the new president has to do is reestablish the American standard, reestablish the American values.&amp;nbsp; People around the world may have disagreed with us about one thing or another, but they always admired us for our adherence to civil rights and human rights, our willingness to have a system of justice and laws that applied even to the government.&amp;nbsp; And a lot of that has been destroyed by the images of the Abu Ghraib prison torture, by the other things that have been done by the United States in the name of this so-called war on terrorism.&amp;nbsp; We need to be able to say the Constitution is still in effect, the Bill of Rights is still in effect, the United States still adheres to the United Nations Universal Declaration on Human Rights, we are still going to uphold the anti-torture convention that we signed.&amp;nbsp; And we are going to be once again a country in the international system that obeys international law, and that we stand for those things, we stand for something.&amp;nbsp; That is an important message, both for our allies and for the people in the Islamic world to know that the United States is not lying, does not have a double standard.&amp;nbsp; The third thing we need to do is to heighten the capability of local governments to find the potential terrorists.&amp;nbsp; And that means working with local governments&amp;rsquo; intelligence services and police services, but not in that heavy-handed, repressive way that many of those governments have tended in the past to operate.&amp;nbsp; Because that just increases support oftentimes for the terrorists.&amp;nbsp; We need to train local intelligence and local law enforcement in smart community policing techniques, in effect.<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">TR:</span>&amp;nbsp; In key countries? <br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">RC:</span>&amp;nbsp; In places like Morocco, Algeria, Jordan, certainly in Pakistan.<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">TR:</span>&amp;nbsp; Let me just come back to the values issue for a moment.&amp;nbsp; There are those who claim that in the balance between hewing to our values and needing to fight the threat of terrorists perhaps with WMD we have to give way on the values side.&amp;nbsp; You have worked on this issue for thirty years; how do you answer those who say we cannot afford to be soft on terrorists, that American values have to be adjusted because this is an emergency?<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">RC:</span>&amp;nbsp; They are right, we cannot afford to be soft on terrorists.&amp;nbsp; That does not mean that we need to break the law, either U.S. law or international law.&amp;nbsp; There was an attitude after 9/11 in the Bush administration that we just had to throw out all the rules to prove how macho we were and that the best response to this shock of 9/11 was to throw out all the rules, break all the rules as though this were the worst experience that the United States had ever had.&amp;nbsp; We had been dealing with terrorists successfully in the past within the boundaries of the law.&amp;nbsp; When we found terrorists abroad we indicted them, we captured them, we flew them back to the United States, we gave them lawyers and we gave them their Miranda rights and we gave them a fair trial and we convicted every one of them.&amp;nbsp; Contrast that record of 100 percent success in criminally prosecuting terrorists with the disastrous record of the Bush administration, where only 29 percent of the terrorists that they have indicted and brought to trial, only 29 percent, not 100 percent, 29 percent have been successfully convicted of terrorist offenses.&amp;nbsp; And then there are the hundreds of people that they hold in places like Guantanamo, where they have so botched the process that they may never successfully be able to do any prosecution with them, either in normal courts or in the military commissions. <br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">TR:</span>&amp;nbsp; So, is this mainly a law and order issue, as some claim, the terrorism problem, or is it a war?&amp;nbsp; Or is it some mix of both?&amp;nbsp; <br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">RC:</span>&amp;nbsp; The jargon is it is a global war on terrorism, and that is very misleading.&amp;nbsp; This is what I mean by diagnosing the problem.&amp;nbsp; If you do not understand what the problem is, then your solution is not going to work.&amp;nbsp; If you do not know the patient&amp;rsquo;s illness, then you will not know what drugs and treatment to give them.&amp;nbsp; It is not global.&amp;nbsp; It is largely within the Islamic world and a little bit of Europe.&amp;nbsp; It is not a war, with a few exceptions.&amp;nbsp; Clearly there is a war going on in Afghanistan and we started one in Iraq, but in most of the places in the world where we have to combat al Qaeda there is not a war going on, in the sense that military forces are fighting each other.&amp;nbsp; And it is really not &amp;ldquo;on terrorism.&amp;rdquo;&amp;nbsp; Terrorism is a tactic.&amp;nbsp; It is one of the many tactics that al Qaeda and the fundamentalist, violent Islamists use.&amp;nbsp; So, if it is not a global war on terrorism, what is it?&amp;nbsp; It is a struggle against a small, deviant minority strain in Islam that wants to overthrow existing governments in the Islamic world, what they believe are apostate governments, and put in their place fundamentalist regimes that are best thought of as what the Taliban were like in Afghanistan when they were running the show there.&amp;nbsp; And they need to be combated with an ideological counterweight as well as with police and law enforcement and intelligence operations.&amp;nbsp; And, in some cases they need to be combated with economic development assistance.&amp;nbsp; You see these incredible slums in Morocco and refugee camps in Lebanon and in Jordan and now in Syria.&amp;nbsp; Those people have no hope for the future, and someone comes along and says, &amp;ldquo;Well, here is my interpretation of Islam, it is the true interpretation, and it offers you a better hope for the future.&amp;rdquo; Many people are at least interested; some people join up.&amp;nbsp; And if there is no counterweight that says, &amp;ldquo;Go to school, learn a skill and you will get a job,&amp;rdquo; that there has been economic development and that a job exists, if there is no other credible path, in many circumstances people will turn to supporting the terrorist groups.&amp;nbsp; So, in some places it is a matter purely of ideology, in some places it is a matter of ideology and deprivation.<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">TR:</span>&amp;nbsp; Is this country capable of mobilizing to fight such a complex struggle without calling it a war?&amp;nbsp; <br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">RC:</span> We like to call so many things wars.&amp;nbsp; Richard Nixon, when he was president, announced a war on cancer.&amp;nbsp; We had, according to the first President Bush, a war on drugs, or at least illicit narcotics.&amp;nbsp; And apparently they thought if you call these things wars that the Congress is more willing to come up with money.&amp;nbsp; I do not think the American people are so simple-minded that we have to give them propaganda for them to understand what is going on here.<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">TR:</span>&amp;nbsp; You have talked about definitions, you have talked about the need to make clear our values and reach out to the Muslim world and make clear they are not our enemy.&amp;nbsp; Let me just ask you one more question about Iraq.&amp;nbsp; In your writings you have talked about the need to withdraw from Iraq as a crucial piece of this, to get resources back for the broader problem, to fight the broader struggle.&amp;nbsp; I wonder the following:&amp;nbsp; If we withdraw from Iraq, will al Qaeda be able to claim this as a victory the way they did when the Israelis withdrew from southern Lebanon and withdrew from Gaza?&amp;nbsp; Is there a way to avoid a propaganda victory while pulling troops back?&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp; <br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">RC:&amp;nbsp;</span> I think the question really has to be asked in a slightly different way.&amp;nbsp; If you are doing something that hurts yourself, do you continue to do that because if you stop doing that someone will make fun of you or someone will claim credit for the fact that you stopped doing what you were doing?&amp;nbsp; I do not think so.&amp;nbsp; Sure, absolutely al Qaeda will claim credit if the United States pulls out of Iraq, whenever that is, whether we do it in 2008, 2009, or 2050, if there is still an al Qaeda around then they will claim credit for it.&amp;nbsp; The fact that they are going to claim credit for it is not a reason for us to continue to hurt ourselves by being in Iraq.&amp;nbsp; I do not think the fact that bin Laden may give a speech or an interview saying, &amp;ldquo;Look, the Americans left Iraq;&amp;rdquo; to prevent that interview I do not think we should sacrifice one American life.&amp;nbsp; I do not think we should sacrifice one Iraqi life to prevent that interview and to allow them a little minor propaganda victory.<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">TR:</span>&amp;nbsp; Do you think that at this point if the U.S. pulled all or most troops out, al Qaeda would reconstitute in Iraq in some form?&amp;nbsp; Or do you think the focus has wholly shifted to the Pakistan-Afghan border?&amp;nbsp; <br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">RC:</span>&amp;nbsp; The organization that was in Iraq that called itself al Qaeda in Mesopotamia, al Qaeda between the two rivers, has largely been eliminated.&amp;nbsp; It has been eliminated not only by the United States Army, but by Iraqis.&amp;nbsp; Both Sunnis, who eventually figured out that they did not like them, and largely by the Shia, the predominant group in Iraq, who have always hated al Qaeda.&amp;nbsp; I think if al Qaeda somehow reconstituted itself or tried to reconstitute itself, if a small group of Sunnis got together in Iraq and called themselves al Qaeda again, or if people from outside of Iraq went there and called themselves al Qaeda, they would be attacked from so many corners that they would not know what was going on.&amp;nbsp; I think the chances of al Qaeda having any sort of cell of significance in Iraq are almost zero.&amp;nbsp; If, however, after the United States military left Iraq, major combat units left, if somehow despite all of the forces against it, something calling itself al Qaeda built a base, a camp, a cell, in Iraq, then I think the United States goes in and surgically eliminates it.<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">TR:</span>&amp;nbsp; With Special Forces?&amp;nbsp; <br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">RC:</span>&amp;nbsp; With Special Forces, with intelligence forces, with aircraft, whatever the right combination is to do it.&amp;nbsp; There is absolutely no reason to believe just because a President of the United States pulls major combat units out of Iraq that it therefore follows that that same President, whoever it is, when told, &amp;ldquo;Hey, there is an al Qaeda camp north of Baghdad,&amp;rdquo; would say, &amp;ldquo;Oh, well I don&amp;rsquo;t care.&amp;rdquo;&amp;nbsp; That logic has always escaped me.&amp;nbsp; Any President of the United States told that there was an al Qaeda camp in Iraq is going to get rid of it, one way or the other.<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">TR:</span>&amp;nbsp; I have talked at length with another author in <span style="font-style: italic;">The Annals</span> volume, Bruce Riedel, about how to deal with the problem along the Pakistan border, but let me just ask you one question on that.&amp;nbsp; There has been talk of the following:&amp;nbsp; That if the Pakistanis do not deal with that problem sufficiently, if the U.S. has information that there is a person of interest across the border or some planning going on, that the U.S. should send forces in from Afghanistan across the border.&amp;nbsp; Do you think that would be wise?&amp;nbsp; D...]]>
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	<entry>
		<title>Peter Bergen: Why al Qaeda Still Matters</title>
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		<modified>2010-03-02T04:11:17Z</modified>
		<issued>2008-09-10T06:32:52Z</issued>
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		<created>2008-09-10T06:32:52Z</created>
		<summary type="text/plain"><![CDATA[This  interview is with Peter Bergen, CNN's terrorism analyst]]></summary>
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<p><span style="font-style: italic;">The following are excerpts from a series of interviews with some of the country&amp;rsquo;s top terrorism experts conducted by Trudy Rubin, the Worldview columnist for the </span>Philadelphia Inquirer<span style="font-style: italic;"> in conjunction with the July 2008 volume of </span>The Annals<span style="font-style: italic;"> on &amp;ldquo;Terrorism: What the Next President Will Face.&amp;rdquo;&amp;nbsp; This&amp;nbsp; interview is with Peter Bergen, CNN&amp;rsquo;s terrorism analyst and&amp;nbsp; one of the only Americans to interview Osama bin Laden in 1997.&amp;nbsp; His most recent book is </span>The Osama bin Laden I know:&amp;nbsp; An Oral History of al Qaeda&amp;rsquo;s Leader.</p>
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<span style="font-weight: bold;"><br /><br /><br />Trudy Rubin:</span> Peter, some analysts argue that al Qaeda is no longer as important a threat as it once was.&amp;nbsp; There is even a debate in the community of terrorism experts between those who argue that leaderless networks of jihadis are more important than al Qaeda central based on the Pakistan-Afghan border.&amp;nbsp; So, does al Qaeda still matter?&amp;nbsp; Is it just a symbol or is it something much more?<br /><br />
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<a href="http://ann.sagepub.com/cgi/reprint/618/1/14">AnnalsLink: &amp;ldquo;Al Qaeda, the Organization: A Five-Year Forecast&amp;rdquo;</a></div>
<span style="font-weight: bold;">Peter Bergen:</span>&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp; I think al Qaeda still matters, basically for three reasons.&amp;nbsp; First of all, Osama bin Laden continues to provide broad strategic guidance to not only al Qaeda the organization, but the whole jihadi movement.&amp;nbsp; Let me give you two or three examples.&amp;nbsp; One, you know bin Laden called for attacks on the Saudi oil industry in 2004.&amp;nbsp; In 2006 we saw the attack on Saudi Arabia&amp;rsquo;s most important oil facility; lucky it did not work out, but had it that is ten percent of the world&amp;rsquo;s oil supply offline, the Abqaiq oil facility was targeted.&amp;nbsp; Bin Laden has, in the last several months, and along with al Qaeda&amp;rsquo;s number two, Ayman al-Zawahiri, called for attacks on the Pakistani state.&amp;nbsp; That is one of the reasons I think that we are seeing epidemic of attacks on Pakistani police, government officials, soldiers, and other representatives of the Pakistani state.&amp;nbsp; In fact there have been more suicide attacks in Pakistan in 2007 than in the whole of modern Pakistani history.&amp;nbsp; So, bin Laden continues to provide broad strategic guidance to the network and sometimes he actually says something very specific about the kinds of attacks that should happen.&amp;nbsp; Here is another example. Bin Laden has been going on about this Danish cartoon controversy, the cartoons of the Prophet Mohammed; it is not a coincidence in my mind that the Danish Embassy was attacked in Islamabad several months ago, and a number of people were killed.&amp;nbsp; So that is one way in which al Qaeda matters.[pagebreak]<br /><br />The second way in which al Qaeda matters is that the leaderless jihadi guys do not represent a really big deal threat until they actually turn up in the federally administered tribal areas in Pakistan and get training from al Qaeda or one of its affiliates, which turns them from guys with a beef, of which there are millions of people around the world, into effective terrorists.&amp;nbsp; It is one thing to be sitting in your bedroom reading the internet and getting all jazzed up about jihadi videos, but that does not really turn you into an effective terrorist.&amp;nbsp; What turns you into an effective terrorist is either fighting in a war or getting training at a terrorist training camp.&amp;nbsp; Because every time we have seen a big terrorist attack, almost without exception somebody involved, usually one of the ringleaders, has either trained at an al Qaeda training camp or fought in a jihad in which al Qaeda was involved.&amp;nbsp; We do not train the American army on the internet, and it turns out you do not train effective terrorists on the internet.&amp;nbsp; You train them at training camps.&amp;nbsp; So that is how al Qaeda remains important. A concrete example of this is two leaderless jihadi types, Mohammed Siddique Khan and a guy called Tanweer, went from England to Pakistan in the 2004-2005 timeframe, trained with al Qaeda, met with al Qaeda leaders, and then conducted the largest terrorist attack in British history on July 7, 2005.&amp;nbsp; In my view, it is very unlikely that the al Qaeda organization will be able to attack the United States because the American public is more vigilant, the American government has made us safer, the American Muslim community has more or less completely rejected the al Qaeda ideology, and there are no al Qaeda sleeper cells in this country.&amp;nbsp; I cannot prove that as a fact, but we have not seen any evidence of this.&amp;nbsp; So given those four facts it is very hard to launch an operation if you do not have people here and you cannot get people in.&amp;nbsp; However, al Qaeda retains an ability to kill American soldiers in Iraq, in Afghanistan; it retains an ability to kill Americans in mass numbers outside the United States, as it tried to do with the planes plot over the summer of 2006, which was an attempt to bring down seven American-Canadian airliners with liquid explosives.<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">TR:</span>&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp; That were departing from Britain?<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">PB:</span>&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp; They were departing from Heathrow.&amp;nbsp; That trial is ongoing right now.&amp;nbsp; Now senior American and senior British officials have said there was an al Qaeda influence there.&amp;nbsp; That information has not come out of the trial, which I think is partly because the prosecutors do not really need that information to send these guys to prison for the rest of their lives, since they made suicide tapes, they had a bomb factory. But it only seems like an al Qaeda operation, the senior people involved went to Pakistan.&amp;nbsp; They used hydrogen peroxide in their plan, industrial strength, which was the same material that was used in the July 7, 2005, successful terrorist attack in London.&amp;nbsp; <br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">TR:</span>&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp; So one presumes they had some training when they went to Pakistan.<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">PB:</span>&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp; Yes.&amp;nbsp; <br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">TR:</span>&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp; By al Qaeda.<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">PB:</span>&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp; They &amp;ldquo;lost their passports,&amp;rdquo; which is a kind of typical piece of tradecraft, you do not want anybody to know you have been to Pakistan.&amp;nbsp; They were traveling to Pakistan in the immediate run-up to the plan.&amp;nbsp; They were making phone calls from public pay phones to Pakistan, obviously careful and concerned about possible surveillance of their own domestic phones.&amp;nbsp; So if it walks like a duck and it seems like a duck it might well be a duck, meaning it looks like it is al Qaeda-organized.<br /><br style="font-weight: bold;" /><span style="font-weight: bold;">TR:&amp;nbsp;</span>&amp;nbsp; Explain a little bit about how al Qaeda central works now.&amp;nbsp; First of all, how did it reconstitute itself where everybody thinks its headquarters is now, somewhere on the Pakistan side of the Pakistan-Afghan border,&amp;nbsp; and how does it function in hiding up there?&amp;nbsp; <br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">PB:</span>&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp; The Pakistani government no longer controls a good chunk of the federally administered tribal areas. It is completely being turned over to the militants.<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">TR:</span>&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp; Which is this section of Pakistan that abuts the border?&amp;nbsp; <br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">PB:</span>&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp; Yes. So it is seven federally administered tribal areas along the Afghan-Pakistan border.&amp;nbsp; It has never really been controlled by the Pakistani government, but now they have really lost control.&amp;nbsp; And so it is kind of Woodstock for every militant jihadi group that can get there and al Qaeda is one of them.&amp;nbsp; And how did it get there?&amp;nbsp; Al Qaeda just moved across the border.&amp;nbsp; I mean, there's a very limited American presence in Pakistan for many reasons.&amp;nbsp; It would be politically almost impossible to send in a large number, or even any number, of American soldiers, that would provoke a pretty difficult reaction from the Pakistani public and Pakistani political class.&amp;nbsp; So, yes, al Qaeda does what anybody would do in its position. There is a large American military presence in Afghanistan and a very small one in Pakistan and the Pakistani government does not control its own territory, so it has gone where it can regroup and it has regrouped.&amp;nbsp; It cannot conduct a 9/11 type of attack on the United States but it can clearly do attacks in other countries overseas and it has had big influence, I think, on the Taliban.&amp;nbsp; The Taliban have adopted al Qaeda&amp;rsquo;s ideology and tactics more or less completely, which is one of the reasons that the situation in Afghanistan is going really pretty poorly.&amp;nbsp; <br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">TR:&amp;nbsp;</span>&amp;nbsp; So, you have a situation where the leadership of al Qaeda is somewhere in this border area.&amp;nbsp; Now, some people have the perception, &amp;ldquo;Oh, they are in caves, what can they do?&amp;nbsp; They cannot even make cell phone calls.&amp;rdquo;&amp;nbsp; Explain how they train people; I mean obviously it is not in big camps anymore or our satellites would see them.&amp;nbsp; So how do they do it, the training, and how do they get the messages out?&amp;nbsp; <br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">PB:</span>&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp; The messages are by couriers and they are making those messages like we are doing the interview here; it is either an audio recording or it is a video recording and they are sent out.&amp;nbsp; It used to be that they were taken to Al Jazeera, either in Pakistan or elsewhere, and now they are just uploaded directly on the internet, which means that they are much harder to trace back.&amp;nbsp; And it also means that they are unedited, because Al Jazeera of course would edit them.&amp;nbsp; So their ability to get their message out has actually increased because of the penetration of the internet in western Pakistan and also their ability to hide their tracks has increased because they are not sending it to particular locations over a particular television network as they did in the past.<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">TR:</span>&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp; But they have a big filming operation, right?&amp;nbsp; <br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">PB:</span>&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp; Yes, they have al Sahab, which means the clouds in Arabic, which produced more than ninety videos and audios last year.&amp;nbsp; Al Sahab has also got analogs and the Taliban one called Ummat Video and now there is something like ten different video operations for all the different militant groups that operate here.&amp;nbsp; So they are all producing DVDs.<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">TR:&amp;nbsp;</span>&amp;nbsp; And they are operating out of this remote area, but with professional equipment?&amp;nbsp; <br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">PB:</span>&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp; Yes, but it does not have to be, they are shooting on stuff you can buy in Dubai and editing on Final Cut Pro--it is basic.&amp;nbsp; They have graphics, they can do subtitles in different languages, they can do some okay editing.&amp;nbsp; But it is not DreamWorks, it is what you can get out there.&amp;nbsp; It is all you need, you really do not need anything more sophisticated.&amp;nbsp; And in terms of the training, it is done in a compound and you have twenty people.&amp;nbsp; The reason I can say this with some confidence is they film their own training, so shooting at targets on a riverbed, it is fifteen guys.&amp;nbsp; It is, as you say, something that is not amenable to overhead imagery from a satellite and so it is much more discreet. But it still exists and obviously it is somewhat effective, because we have seen people go and the numbers seem to be increasing, according to a number of American officials; more foreigners coming in to get this training.&amp;nbsp; I was in Iraq relatively recently and people were saying to me there that the number of foreign fighters coming into Iraq has just dropped precipitously because al Qaeda in Iraq is taking so many hits, and instead people are now going to Afghanistan, where they feel it is more like a good jihad, that they might have a bigger impact.<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">TR:&amp;nbsp;</span>&amp;nbsp; So you have Arabs going there?&amp;nbsp; Young Arabs?&amp;nbsp; Where else would people be coming from?&amp;nbsp; <br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">PB:</span>&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp; We have seen the first very interesting case; in March we saw the first German citizen conducting a suicide attack in Afghanistan, he was a German Turk.&amp;nbsp; That is the first European conducting a suicide attack in Afghanistan that I am aware of.&amp;nbsp; And we are seeing people coming in through Turkey, through Iran, I mean we are not talking about large numbers but they are the kinds of people who would have gone to Iraq and are going to Afghanistan.&amp;nbsp; <br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">TR:</span>&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp; And you have some people now who have been trained in Iraq moving on to the border area?&amp;nbsp; <br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">PB:</span>&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp; Yes. I can also say with some confidence that that is also true because we have seen people being captured or killed or arrested in Iraq who came from Afghanistan, so we know that the people are getting there.&amp;nbsp; There are a number of examples of people who have been arrested on the way to Iraq from Afghanistan and Pakistan, who have ended up being killed in Iraq coming from Afghanistan, and these are the people we know about, so we can presume that the traffic between these places is larger.&amp;nbsp; <br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">TR:</span>&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp; And in terms of the links with the Taliban, how much is al Qaeda responsible for destabilizing the situation in Afghanistan?&amp;nbsp; Are they now involved in planning the operations where Afghan Taliban and so-called Pakistani Taliban, Pakistani militants go across the border to destabilize Afghanistan?&amp;nbsp; <br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">PB:</span>&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp; I think they have been very important, ideologically and tactically. Baitullah Mehsud, who runs the Pakistani Taliban, has talked about attacking London and New York, and he sent suicide bombers to Spain in January.&amp;nbsp; Now, the Taliban are a very provincial bunch of people, many of whom have never really left the immediate area where they live, and suddenly they are talking about the global jihad and they are talking about attacking Western targets.&amp;nbsp; And by their own account, they are taking orders from bin Laden; we have had interviews.&amp;nbsp; Mullah Dadullah, who was the leader of the Afghan Taliban in the south before he was killed in 2006, gave two quite interesting interviews to Al Jazeera in which he said, &amp;ldquo;We are in contact with bin Laden, we have give and take with the mujahedin in Iraq.&amp;rdquo;&amp;nbsp; And you can tell if you chart the rate of suicide attacks in Afghanistan, they only take off after the success of the Iraqi operation, that al Qaeda&amp;rsquo;s suicide attacks in Iraq began to have a big effect on the Iraqi conflict.&amp;nbsp; And then the Taliban looked at that and said, either copycatting directly or sending people to Iraq, that &amp;ldquo;Hey, this is going to work for us because this is a way of really destabilizing the country,&amp;rdquo; and also it is effective.&amp;nbsp; And it has been effective, unfortunately.&amp;nbsp; So in 2005 there were 27 suicide attacks in Afghanistan and in 2006 there were 139; in the years before there were onesies and twosies, very small numbers.&amp;nbsp; So it only really took off after they saw the success of these tactics in Iraq.&amp;nbsp; Similarly, the IED attacks in Afghanistan have doubled every year in the last three years because these tactics work.<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">TR:</span>&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp; So you have a planning central, a corporate headquarters, along the Afghan-Pakistan border setting strategy, designing tactics, giving information and training on those tactics.&amp;nbsp; How dangerous is this central headquarters to Pakistan itself?&amp;nbsp; Because, after all, one of al Qaeda&amp;rsquo;s central ideas is that they want a territorial base, isn't it?&amp;nbsp; <br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">PB:&amp;nbsp;</span>&amp;nbsp; Yes, I think you are right about that.&amp;nbsp; And some people, Olivier Roy, who is a French scholar, has said that they do not want a territorial base, and I think that is nonsense.&amp;nbsp; Ayman al-Zawahiri in his autobiographical book &amp;ldquo;Knights Under the Prophet&amp;rsquo;s Banner&amp;rdquo; essentially said, &amp;ldquo;Look, that is what we want.&amp;rdquo; They want to be able to impose a Taliban-style regime on an area that they control.&amp;nbsp; Yes, they do want terror and they do want training camps.&amp;nbsp; So on the Afghan-Pakistan border they have something along those lines.&amp;nbsp; Now, of course, in Iraq one of the things that was surprising to me is how much area al Qaeda effectively controlled in Iraq.&amp;nbsp; That was kind of surprising to me.&amp;nbsp; Now that is almost entirely gone.&amp;nbsp; As an insurgent organization that controlled large swaths of territory, not only in Anbar province, which is, after all, thirty percent of the country, but also in places like Diala and the Sunni Triangle of Death that is southwest of Baghdad, and there were a lot of different places that they actually more or less controlled.&amp;nbsp; That is what they want. They do not want to be just an idea.&amp;nbsp; They do want to actually control territory.&amp;nbsp; So in Iraq they have lost that more or less completely except way up north and in isolated pockets, but on the Afghan-Pakistan border they do have this.&amp;nbsp; And of course they are affecting, I think, in Pakistan the situation pretty badly because of their ability to affect the Pakistani Taliban&amp;rsquo;s ideas and ideology, and basically it is all one harmonic convergence now.&amp;nbsp; The Kashmiri militant groups, at least the ones that are the really militant ones, the Pakistani Taliban, al Qaeda, they have the same ideas, which are al Qaeda ideas.&amp;nbsp; They use the same tactics, which are suicide tactics.&amp;nbsp; There were sixty suicide attacks in Pakistan in 2007 and five in 2006, so this thing is really blowing back very badly on the Pakistanis.<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">TR:</span>&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp; So, you have corporate headquarters here, and they have a wonderful opportunity on this Pakistan-Afghan border because they have all kinds of militants that they can send out as foot soldiers.&amp;nbsp; They have the Pakistanis, who Pakistan trained at one point to fight India in Kashmir, the so-called Kashmiri militants.&amp;nbsp; They have the Taliban, Afghan and Pakistani, they have foreigners coming in.&amp;nbsp; Does anyone have any idea how big the staff of central headquarters is?&amp;nbsp; How many are we talking about in the leadership?&amp;nbsp; <br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">PB:</span>&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp; Al Qaeda has always been a very small organization, if you define it as the people who have sworn a religious personal oath of allegiance to bin Laden, and that number was two hundred around the time of 9/11. It may be one hundred to one-hundred fifty now.&amp;nbsp; And then you have got basically Arabs or Chechens or Uzbeks or other foreigners who are there who may not have sworn a personal oath of allegiance, and there are maybe two hundred or three hundred of those.&amp;nbsp; And then around them you have got tens of thousands of members of Pakistani-Kashmiri militant groups, tens of thousands of members of the Pakistani Taliban, tens of thousands of members of the Afghan Taliban of one kind or another.&amp;nbsp; So if you do the total numbers, you are talking about substantial numbers, in the low tens of thousands of militants who are based along this border.&amp;nbsp; How many of them are al Qaeda central?&amp;nbsp; The answer is that is a pretty small number, in the several hundreds.<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">TR:</span>&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp; How important are its two leaders, Osama bin Laden and Ayman al-Zawahiri?&amp;nbsp; <br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">PB:&amp;nbsp;</span>&amp;nbsp; I think that they are incredibly important.&amp;nbsp; I subscribe to an old-fashioned view of history that people make a big difference. Why were the French in Moscow in 1812?&amp;nbsp; There is only one explanation, it is Napoleon&amp;rsquo;s ego.&amp;nbsp; There is a debate about the Holocaust.&amp;nbsp; If you take Hitler out of the equation, it seems to me the Holocaust might not have happened.&amp;nbsp; Similarly with bin Laden and Ayman al-Zawahiri.&amp;nbsp; Al Qaeda is their idea, al Qaeda strategies are their ideas, 9/11 was basically their baby.&amp;nbsp; They continue to influence the wider jihadi movement.&amp;nbsp; And in fact the best, the most reliable guide to what the global jihadi movement will do is what bin Laden says.&amp;nbsp; So if he starts talking about Darfur and saying that Darfur is not a humanitarian Western intervention, that it was actually attempts to take over a Muslim entity, you can guarantee that people, jihadi types, will start showing up in Darfur.<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">TR:&amp;nbsp;</span>&amp;nbsp; So if one or both of those leaders were taken out, if Osama bin Laden were taken out, what kind of an impact would that have?&amp;nbsp; <br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">PB:&amp;nbsp;</span>&amp;nbsp; Some people say, &amp;ldquo;Well, of course the jihadi movement would continue without him,&amp;rdquo; which yes, that is a very obvious point to make.&amp;nbsp; However, that does not preclude the fact that taking him out would be quite important.&amp;nbsp; It would be a major psychological victory for the enemies of al Qaeda and it would be a major non-psychological victory for al Qaeda and its affiliates if he suddenly was captured or killed.&amp;nbsp; Now, taking out Ayman al-Zawahiri I think would be less important.&amp;nbsp; Because bin Laden, there is no contest about who runs al Qaeda, who is the star of the jihadi movement.&amp;nbsp; With Ayman al-Zawahiri, he is not a natural leader.<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">TR:&amp;nbsp;</span>&amp;nbsp; He is an Egyptian by birth, though.<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">PB:</span>&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp; He is an Egyptian, so there are a lot of people in the Egyptian jihadi movement who do not like him.<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">TR:&amp;nbsp;</span>&amp;nbsp; Given the threat that al Qaeda central presents to the Pakistani state, it did seem at one point that President Musharraf, when he was far more powerful and was wearing a military uniform, recognized the danger since they had tried to assassinate him, and made some effort, at least when it came to al Qaeda central.&amp;nbsp; But these days, one gets a sense of drift.&amp;nbsp; Why hasn&amp;rsquo;t more been done by the Pakistanis, especially by the military and Pakistani intelligence, when the threat seems so apparent, at least in the west?&amp;nbsp; <br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">PB:</span>&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp; With the Pakistanis there is a lack of willingness, a lack of capability, it is really hard to sort all of this out.&amp;nbsp; But I think the main reason for this is actually geographical. When you look at the period when they were capturing a lot of al Qaeda leaders they were all in Pakistani cities, and they are much easier to find because they were using cell phones, you can triangulate where they are, and you have people who are informants, et cetera.&amp;nbsp; Whereas if you are in the tribal areas, finding people because of cell phones is much harder, and the Pakistani government does not control this area.&amp;nbsp; So I think it is a reflection of their lack of ability to control their own territory.<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">TR:</span>&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp; I want to get back to al Qaeda central in a minute, but something that you wrote fascinated me.&amp;nbsp; You say that, despite the threat we have talked about from al Qaeda central, the greatest Islamist threat today emanates from Europe and not from domestic sleeper cells, either there or inside the United States, or even from graduates of radical Middle Eastern religious schools, or madrasas.&amp;nbsp; Why do you say that?&amp;nbsp; Why is the greatest threat from Europe?&amp;nbsp; <br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">PB:</span>&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp; People who graduate from madrasas are functional idiots, generally speaking.&amp;nbsp; They can recite the Koran in a language they do not necessarily understand, which does not get you through customs at JFK or customs at Heathrow.&amp;nbsp; I have looked into the question of how many madrasa graduates have been involved in significant acts of anti-Western terrorism, and the answer is almost zero.&amp;nbsp; The person you have to be concerned about is someone like Omar Sheikh, who kidnapped Danny Pearl.&amp;nbsp; And Omar Sheikh went to the London School of Economics.&amp;nbsp; So the London School of Economics graduates are potentially more worrisome than madrasa graduates.&amp;nbsp; <br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">TR:&amp;nbsp;</span>&amp;nbsp; And the threat from Europe?&amp;nbsp; <br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">PB:</span>&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp; 9/11 would not have been possible without the Hamburg cell.&amp;nbsp; The Hamburg cell provided three out of four of the pilots and provided one of the main operational planners, Ramzi bin al Sheeb.&amp;nbsp; So these guys got more radicalized in Germany than they were in their own countries, through a combination of homesickness and European racism and alienation or whatever.&amp;nbsp; If we get attacked again in the United States, which is probably inevitable at some point, it will not be some Pakistani madrasa graduate who can barely speak English. That is not the threat.&amp;nbsp; The threat is a second-generation person who has adopted radical Islam as a form of identity because either they do not feel really British or they do not feel really Pakistani and they see this as a form of identity, and then benefitting from the visa waiver program they can come to the United States.&amp;nbsp; Richard Reid, the so-called shoe bomber, he was a British Muslim.&amp;nbsp; He had a friend who did not go through with the attack who also was planning an attack with a shoe bomb.&amp;nbsp; We have seen British Muslims conduct suicide operations in Tel Aviv in 2003.&amp;nbsp; This planes plot over the summer of 2006 was an attempt to bring down American-Canadian airliners with suicide attacks by British Muslims again. So that seems to be the real source of the threat.&amp;nbsp; It is not al Qaeda sleeper cells in the United States.<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">TR:</span>&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp; And you have written about the particular threat from a small segment of the British Pakistani community.&amp;nbsp; Why is that particularly an issue?&amp;nbsp; <br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">PB:&amp;nbsp;</span>&amp;nbsp; Because 400,000 British citizens go to Pakistan every year; 99.9 percent of them on completely legitimate business or vacations.&amp;nbsp; But some of them go to hook up with Kashmiri militant groups and eventually end up with al Qaeda.&amp;nbsp; So these are the people that conducted the July 7, 2005, attack and there has been a slew of attacks, there were plans, in Britain that have not worked out, thankfully, but their commonality is that the people involved, or at least the leadership, went to Pakistan to get training from al Qaeda or an affiliated group.<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">TR:</span>&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp; So, what you are saying is that poverty is not the key marker for recruitment of jihadis, would-be suicide bombers, it is more likely to be alienation.<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">PB:</span>&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp; When I was just in Afghanistan I interviewed a guy who was a failed suicide attacker in Afghanistan, and he had not even been to a madrasa, he had not been to any form of education.&amp;nbsp; He was a cow herder. Somebody came along and recruited him and he felt that it is very expensive to get married, he was thirty, and that if he &amp;ldquo;martyred&amp;rdquo; himself, that then he could get married in Heaven for free with some of the virgins up there, that was his motivation.&amp;nbsp; But that is not untypical for the profile of somebody conducting a suicide operation in Afghanistan for Pakistan.&amp;nbsp; But in general, particularly when these things happen in the west, that sort of person is not going to be successful.&amp;nbsp; There have been overwhelming studies of this, and in case after case the more educated you are the more likely you are to engage in terrorism, and the higher your income, relatively speaking, the more likely you are to get engaged in terrorism.&amp;nbsp; So, social science does not usually have many actual scientific outcomes in the sense that you can actually make one hundred percent predictions, but one thing we can predict is that as people get, on average, more educated and better off, they are more likely to engage in terrorism.&amp;nbsp; That is just something the academic literature really is pretty consistent about.<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">TR:</span>&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp; Given all this, what do you believe are al Qaeda&amp;rsquo;s key goals in the future?&amp;nbsp; You said that the likelihood of an attack on U.S. soil is small; do you think it is likely to grow?&amp;nbsp; And what do you think are the chances that al Qaeda would really use some kind of nuclear or radioactive weapon, if they could get one?&amp;nbsp; Do you subscribe to the theory that Osama bin Laden, if he would attack in the US, wants a bigger effect than 9/11 and therefore would only do it if it were something more spectacular?&amp;nbsp; <br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">PB:</span>&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp; No, I think they would get whatever they could.&amp;nbsp; The law of averages suggests that they will be able to attack the United States at some point in the future.&amp;nbsp; When I say I think they are likely to be small, I think for the next five years I think it is small.&amp;nbsp; But if you extend it out for twenty, thirty years, yes, eventually they will get one through.&amp;nbsp; Or an al Qaeda-inspired cell is also obviously able to carry out attacks in the United States, but those are likely to be small.<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">TR:</span>&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp; But their goals then?&amp;nbsp; <br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">PB:</span>&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp; Their g...]]>
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		<title>Bruce Riedel: We need to make the war against al Qaeda Pakistan&apos;s war, not just America&apos;s war.</title>
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		<modified>2010-03-02T04:11:17Z</modified>
		<issued>2008-09-10T06:30:21Z</issued>
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		<created>2008-09-10T06:30:21Z</created>
		<summary type="text/plain"><![CDATA["We need to make the war against Al Qaeda Pakistan's War, not just America's war."]]></summary>
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		<![CDATA[<p> <img width="300" height="200" align="right" src="/Image/Reidel.jpg" alt="Trudy Rubin interviews Bruce Riedel" class="authorphoto" /> <span style="font-weight: bold;"></span><span style="font-style: italic;">The following are excerpts from a series of interviews with some of the country&amp;rsquo;s top terrorism experts conducted by Trudy Rubin, the Worldview columnist for the </span>Philadelphia Inquirer<span style="font-style: italic;"> in conjunction with the July 2008 volume of </span>The Annals<span style="font-style: italic;"> on &amp;ldquo;Terrorism: What the Next President Will Face.&amp;rdquo;&amp;nbsp; This interview is with Bruce Riedel, a senior advisor on Middle East and South Asian issues to the last three US presidents, who was in the White House situation room during the 9/11 attacks.&amp;nbsp; He is now a senior fellow at the Brookings Institution and author of &amp;ldquo;The Search for al Qaeda: Its Leadership, Ideology, and Future.&amp;rdquo;</span></p>
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<p><span style="font-weight: bold;"><br />Trudy Rubin:</span>&amp;nbsp; Bruce, you say in your article that Pakistan is the most dangerous country in the world today, no issue is more critical to get right for the next President. What do you mean by that?&amp;nbsp; <br /> </p>
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<br style="font-weight: bold;" /><span style="font-weight: bold;">Bruce Riedel:</span>&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp; I actually wrote those lines for the first time ten years ago in a memo for then-President Clinton.&amp;nbsp; I think Pakistan is the most dangerous country because all of the nightmares of the twenty-first century that should concern Americans come together in Pakistan in a unique way.&amp;nbsp; This is a country with nuclear weapons.&amp;nbsp; This is a county with a history of proliferating nuclear technology.&amp;nbsp; This is a country that has fought four wars with its neighbor, and at least one of those wars went very close to becoming a nuclear war.&amp;nbsp; This is a country that has been the host of numerous international terrorist organizations and is today the safe haven and stronghold of the al Qaeda terrorist organization.&amp;nbsp; This is a country also awash in drugs, narcotics, and this is a country where the clash between reactionary Islamic extremism and democracy is being fought out literally in front of us.&amp;nbsp; All of those issues come together in this one place like nowhere else in the world.&amp;nbsp; That is why it is so important to Americans.[pagebreak]<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">TR:</span>&amp;nbsp; Some people argue, including Senator John McCain, that Iraq is still the central front in the war on terrorism and that al Qaeda itself has said that is the case.&amp;nbsp; Is there some truth in this?&amp;nbsp; <br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">BR:</span>&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp; Al Qaeda has said that the war in Iraq is one of the most important battlefields in their struggle.&amp;nbsp; But I think that as Americans we ought to focus on where the enemy is.&amp;nbsp; Osama bin Laden and his number two, the Egyptian Ayman al-Zawahiri, are the heart of al Qaeda.&amp;nbsp; They are the ones who planned the attack of 9/11, and who are planning new attacks on American interests around the world.&amp;nbsp; And there is not one iota of evidence that they have ever been in Iraq.&amp;nbsp; And there is abundant evidence that they are operating outside of Pakistan, in the badlands on the Afghan-Pakistan border.<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">TR:</span>&amp;nbsp; Outside of Pakistan or just inside the border?&amp;nbsp; <br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">BR:</span>&amp;nbsp; Probably inside Pakistan somewhere, maybe going back and forth.&amp;nbsp; The most important thing about their safe haven there is that it is growing.&amp;nbsp; It is getting bigger.&amp;nbsp; A lot of experts have focused on the FATA, the so-called federally administered tribal areas, which is the most lawless part of Pakistan&amp;rsquo;s borderlands.&amp;nbsp; But, in fact, al Qaeda and its allies, the Taliban and other groups, operate along the entire western border, from Balukistan through FATA, through the northwest frontier province, into Kashmir; a 1500-mile long borderland in which they can operate with complete impunity.<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">TR:</span>&amp;nbsp; How dangerous is al Qaeda to us?&amp;nbsp; As you know, some terrorism experts have begun to downplay its importance in Pakistan and globally there was a much-commented about article in<span style="font-style: italic;"> The New Yorker</span> recently by Lawrence Wright, talking about dissent within al Qaeda, especially amongst imprisoned leaders, and some experts argue that grassroots groups springing up in Europe are more significant than al Qaeda in the caves and mountains of the border areas of Pakistan.&amp;nbsp; Is al Qaeda still the most dangerous group?&amp;nbsp; <br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">BR:</span>&amp;nbsp; According to our own intelligence community, and the British intelligence community, German intelligence community, and other Western intelligence communities, it is.&amp;nbsp; And they have said that in public, not just this year but for the last several years.&amp;nbsp; Larry Wright, who has written probably the seminal book about 9/11, has written some very insightful things about the arguments that are going on within the jihadist movement today.&amp;nbsp; But he does not argue there, as far as I can tell, that the al Qaeda movement is not a threat anymore.&amp;nbsp; I think of al Qaeda as being much like a multinational corporation that operates on a global stage.&amp;nbsp; You have the headquarters in Pakistan with the CEO, Osama bin Laden.&amp;nbsp; Then around the Islamic world it has various franchises, just like a McDonald&amp;rsquo;s or a Toyota has franchises.&amp;nbsp; Some of those franchises at any one time are doing well and growing, for example, their franchise in North Africa, in Magrab, and their franchise in Libya.&amp;nbsp; Others are not doing as well.&amp;nbsp; Currently the one in Iraq is in a phase of retreat, and the al Qaeda franchise in Saudi Arabia has been badly damaged by the Saudi authorities.&amp;nbsp; But all of these franchises in some way report back to the al Qaeda center.&amp;nbsp; Do they take orders?&amp;nbsp; Well, they take general instructions.&amp;nbsp; We know this because they say they take general instructions.&amp;nbsp; And then beyond these franchises we have cells, principally in Western Europe, but also in other parts of the world, small al Qaeda cells which are also taking instructions.&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp; The British, for example, say that every major terrorist operation foiled in the United Kingdom in the last five years was linked back to the al Qaeda center.&amp;nbsp; We can all take great comfort from the fact that we have not been attacked inside the United States again since 9/11.&amp;nbsp; But comfort should not lead to wishful thinking that the threat has gone away.&amp;nbsp; I would point you to the trial that is going on in London right now with regard to the plot in August of 2006 to simultaneously blow up over the north Atlantic ten jumbo jets.&amp;nbsp; That plot, had it succeeded, would have been worse than 9/11.&amp;nbsp; More people would have died and we would not have known who did it because all the forensic evidence would be at the bottom of the Atlantic Ocean.&amp;nbsp; What we know is, the bomb worked.&amp;nbsp; That is why Americans cannot take a soda on an airplane anymore.&amp;nbsp; Second, we know that they had the martyrs ready to commit suicide, because we have their martyrdom videos, which have been introduced into court.&amp;nbsp; Third, we know the flights that they wanted to attack because they were on their Blackberries.&amp;nbsp; That was a serious attempt by al Qaeda to outdo 9/11.&amp;nbsp; Thanks to British security and intelligence it was thwarted.&amp;nbsp; It is a wake-up call to us all, that these guys are still plotting evil from that lair in Pakistan.<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">TR:</span> In Pakistan.&amp;nbsp; So basically, al Qaeda in Pakistan, like corporate headquarters, is setting strategy and holding training seminars?<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">BR:</span>&amp;nbsp; That is right.&amp;nbsp; And, they are also publishing a lot of propaganda.&amp;nbsp; They put out an unending stream of their public diplomacy.&amp;nbsp; In 2004, al Qaeda&amp;rsquo;s Pakistan propaganda apparatus put out twelve tapes.&amp;nbsp; In 2007, they put out almost a hundred.&amp;nbsp; In 2008, they are off to an even faster start, and this is a very slick operation.&amp;nbsp; They put out audio tapes and video tapes with interactive maps in them, with video of the targets that are being attacked, with pictures of presidents and other world figures to illustrate their arguments.&amp;nbsp; We have even seen on TV that their corporate studio now has coffee mugs with their logo on them, just like it was CNN or Fox.&amp;nbsp; That is not someone operating in a cave.&amp;nbsp; That is a highly sophisticated propaganda organization, directly responsive to Osama bin Laden.<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">TR:</span>&amp;nbsp; Just a word about their goals as they operate from this base all along the Pakistan-Afghan border. What are their goals for their immediate neighborhood and their goals for the broader world?<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">BR:</span>&amp;nbsp; Let us start with their ultimate goal.&amp;nbsp; Their ultimate goal is to drive the United States out of the Muslim world, to force us to withdraw all of our military forces, our diplomats, and even our educational institutions from the Islamic world.&amp;nbsp; Once the far enemy, as they call us, is driven away, then the near enemy, which is the regimes in Saudi Arabia and Pakistan, in Egypt, in Iraq, that they hate, they think they can overthrow.&amp;nbsp; And then it is on to the next step, which is the destruction of Israel, which they hold as one of their principal objectives.&amp;nbsp; At the end of all this is some kind of enormous, jihadist super-state.&amp;nbsp; Now, they know that they are not going to create this jihadist super-state any time in the foreseeable future.&amp;nbsp; But these are the long-term goals.&amp;nbsp; The immediate goal is to bleed the United States and its allies in what they call &amp;ldquo;bleeding wars,&amp;rdquo; the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.&amp;nbsp; What they have in mind is to do to us what they believe the mujahedin did to the Soviet Union in Afghanistan in the 1980s.&amp;nbsp; Afghanistan in the 1980s was the formative experience of Osama bin Laden&amp;rsquo;s life, of Ayman al-Zawahiri&amp;rsquo;s life, of Khalid Sheikh Muhammad&amp;rsquo;s life.&amp;nbsp; This is where their worldview was shaped.&amp;nbsp; They believe that they can grind us down in Afghanistan and in Iraq to a point where we will ultimately say, &amp;ldquo;enough is enough,&amp;rdquo; and the United States will be as crippled as the Soviet Union was.<br /><br style="font-weight: bold;" /><span style="font-weight: bold;">TR:</span>&amp;nbsp; How has it been possible for radical jihadi group--from al Qaeda to the Pakistani and Afghan Taliban to Pakistani terrorist groups that have trained in Kashmir to fight India--how has it been possible for them to keep sinking deeper and deeper roots in these tribal areas?&amp;nbsp; You write that Pakistan&amp;rsquo;s army and its Inter-Services Intelligence Agency, the so-called ISI, had a hand in creating many of these groups.&amp;nbsp; Tell us a bit of the history.<br /><br style="font-weight: bold;" /><span style="font-weight: bold;">BR:</span>&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp; We need to go back to the 1980s and the war against the Soviet Union in Afghanistan.&amp;nbsp; The ISI, ironically in close cooperation with the United States and with many of our allies around the world, the British, French, Germans, Israelis, and others, saw in the mujahedin a mechanism to destroy the Soviet Union and, in particular, the Soviet 40th Red Army stationed in Afghanistan.&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp; A culture of jihadism was encouraged in Pakistan by then-Pakistani military dictator, Zia ul Huq.&amp;nbsp; When the war ended, Pakistan found itself with a very effective mechanism for fighting asymmetric warfare against its enemies.&amp;nbsp; It next tried to use that same warfare against India in Kashmir, and in the late 1980s, early 1990s, a guerilla insurgency began in Kashmir, which was also funded and supported and, to a large extent, controlled by the ISI.&amp;nbsp; Then, back in Afghanistan, the Pakistanis discovered that the Afghan mujahedin were fighting a civil war, and they decided to support one faction, the Taliban, in order to consolidate their control over Afghanistan.&amp;nbsp; By the end of the twentieth century, in effect Pakistan had become the birthplace for a whole group of terrorist organizations, from the Taliban to different Kashmiri groups, and within that nexus is where you find al Qaeda born.&amp;nbsp; And al Qaeda was born into this jihadist structure, which is intimately linked to the Pakistani intelligence service and to the Pakistani military.&amp;nbsp; Now, after 9/11 General Musharraf promised that he would break all those links, but the more things change the more they look a lot alike.&amp;nbsp; And in fact while he did go after al Qaeda to a certain extent, he continued to support the Kashmiris and the Taliban and within that jihadist culture it was impossible to destroy al Qaeda.&amp;nbsp; Selective counterterrorism in Pakistan will not work.&amp;nbsp; What we need is a complete change in Pakistan&amp;rsquo;s approach towards terrorism.<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">TR:</span>&amp;nbsp; You said that the Pakistani attitude towards India and the battle with India over Kashmir led to support for the Taliban.&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp; In fact, the Pakistanis actually helped the Taliban take over in Afghanistan in the late 1990s, right?&amp;nbsp; So what was their idea about why they wanted a Taliban government in Afghanistan?&amp;nbsp; <br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">BR:</span>&amp;nbsp; The strategic nightmare of Pakistani military leaders, and political leaders, is that they would be in a two-front war.&amp;nbsp; That they would face their traditional enemy, India, to the east and then Afghanistan, which was pro-India, to the west.&amp;nbsp; This nightmare lay behind Zia&amp;rsquo;s approach in the 1980s.&amp;nbsp; He feared a Soviet-occupied Afghanistan to the west and a pro-Soviet India to the east.&amp;nbsp; And it is exactly the same paradigm that Pakistani leaders worry about today.&amp;nbsp; The Karzai government in Afghanistan, which we support, is seen by many in Pakistan as not only pro-American, but pro-Indian, and for good reason.&amp;nbsp; President Karzai spent a lot of his life in India.&amp;nbsp; He was educated in India.&amp;nbsp; And he has often been very critical of the ISI&amp;rsquo;s role in his own country.&amp;nbsp; There are now accusations, for example, that the ISI was directly involved in the destruction, the blowing up, of the Indian embassy in Kabul.&amp;nbsp; Both Afghan and Indian intelligence officials are now saying on the record that they have evidence the ISI was involved.&amp;nbsp; Now, I have not seen the evidence that they are alluding to, but these are very serious charges from very serious intelligence people.<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">TR:</span> During Musharraf&amp;rsquo;s period as military ruler, supposedly he had agreed with the United States to go after al Qaeda.&amp;nbsp; But was this relationship between the ISI and Taliban and jihadi groups undercutting him or, in fact, as a military man was he just as ambivalent as the ISI, and is that the reason why you never had any real progress in cleaning out those areas during the years of his rule?&amp;nbsp; <br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">BR:</span>&amp;nbsp; One of the things that we should understand is that Pakistani politics are not transparent.&amp;nbsp; Trying to find out the truth about much of what happens in Pakistan is very, very difficult even for Pakistanis to get a handle on.&amp;nbsp; There are conspiracies within conspiracies within conspiracies.&amp;nbsp; General Musharraf, to give him credit, did bring some significant al Qaeda lieutenants to capture and to imprisonment, including Khalid Sheikh Muhammad.&amp;nbsp; But he never seemed to focus the resources of the Pakistani security establishment on capturing the top level of al Qaeda.&amp;nbsp; And he did nothing to break the back of the Taliban, nor of the Kashmiri groups that are closely allied with it.&amp;nbsp; And I keep coming back to the point that this is a nexus.&amp;nbsp; That if you only try to target one or two individuals, you really miss the much bigger problem that you are dealing with.&amp;nbsp; Here again, there is recent information that is important.&amp;nbsp; We just had an attack on an American fire base in Afghanistan in which nine American soldiers were killed.&amp;nbsp; The evidence we are getting about that attack was that it was a combination of Taliban, al Qaeda, and a Kashmiri group called Lashkar-e-Taiba all operating together to target Americans in Afghanistan.&amp;nbsp; The point is, we need a sophisticated strategy that breaks Pakistan&amp;rsquo;s relationship with all of these terrorist organizations.&amp;nbsp; That is what we have been lacking and that is what we need to discover.<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">TR:</span>&amp;nbsp; Under Musharraf, towards the later years, the Pakistani military was sent into those areas in force but failed badly.&amp;nbsp; What does that say about the ability of the Pakistani army, even if they should take a more determined stance, to deal with the jihadis?&amp;nbsp; <br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">BR:</span>&amp;nbsp; The Pakistani army did deploy and it did lose several hundred soldiers in very violent firefights with some of these jihadist elements.&amp;nbsp; The Pakistani army, though, has been built to fight a war with India. The Pakistani Strategic Doctrine is about fighting a decisive tank battle in the deserts of Rajasthan with the Indian army, much like the British 8th Army defeated the Africa Corps in north Africa in 1942.&amp;nbsp; The Pakistani army is not built for counter-insurgency and counter-terrorism.&amp;nbsp; One of the things that we should do as a country is help Pakistan re-orient its military, from focusing on war against India into a military that can be more effective in the counter-insurgency game.&amp;nbsp; That is not inexpensive and it is not easy to do, but it should be a long-term goal of the United States working with Pakistan to make a more effective force.&amp;nbsp; But even more important than that is to make this Pakistan&amp;rsquo;s war.&amp;nbsp; For the vast bulk of Pakistanis, the war against al Qaeda is Bush&amp;rsquo;s war, it is America&amp;rsquo;s war.&amp;nbsp; They see this as a war being fought by Musharraf in order to keep Musharraf in power and to maintain a dictatorship over them, and they are sick of it.&amp;nbsp; They voted against him overwhelmingly in the elections in February of this year.&amp;nbsp; The trick for the United States, and it is an absolutely important one to get right, is to persuade Pakistanis that the war against al Qaeda is Pakistan&amp;rsquo;s war, not just America&amp;rsquo;s war.&amp;nbsp; The late Benazir Bhutto spoke eloquently about this, which may be one of the reasons why she is dead today.&amp;nbsp; It can be done.&amp;nbsp; It cannot be done by supporting a dictator and standing behind a general who lost the confidence of the Pakistani people, and it cannot be done by having a purely military-to-military relationship with the Pakistanis.&amp;nbsp; We need to put our trust in the Pakistani people.<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">TR:</span>&amp;nbsp; This new government that has been elected, the largest party is the late Benazir Bhutto&amp;rsquo;s Pakistan People&amp;rsquo;s Party, they hold the prime ministership.&amp;nbsp; Their foreign minister, Makhdoom Shah Mahmood Qureshi, was just in Washington and he talked passionately about how he wants to improve relations with India, and how Pakistani businessmen want this.&amp;nbsp; Do he and his government have the power to move things towards better relations with India?&amp;nbsp; And if they could, would this be core towards changing the attitude of the public and of the military towards dealing with the jihadi threat?&amp;nbsp; <br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">BR:</span>&amp;nbsp; The foreign minister was here at Brookings during part of his trip, and you are right, he speaks very eloquently about the need for India and Pakistan to find a better future.&amp;nbsp; And I think that is a very good sign of hope.&amp;nbsp; But you are also right about the central question.&amp;nbsp; Pakistan is in the process of an extremely complex transition from military dictatorship to what Pakistanis hope will be democracy.&amp;nbsp; This is a fragile and difficult process.&amp;nbsp; If you look at the history of Pakistan, in sixty years more often than not it has been ruled by a military dictator.&amp;nbsp; Twice before it has tried to go from military dictatorship to democracy and failed.&amp;nbsp; This third attempt is probably Pakistan&amp;rsquo;s last real chance, not only at democracy but maybe as even surviving as a state.&amp;nbsp; There are no guarantees here; this is going to be hard to do.&amp;nbsp; That is why this is one of the most difficult challenges the next president will face.&amp;nbsp; What I think he needs to do is to embrace the Pakistani people&amp;rsquo;s decision.&amp;nbsp; They have elected this leadership.&amp;nbsp; We are going to argue with this leadership on many issues, but we ought to do so respectfully and cordially, and we ought to do so in a manner which encourages the survival of democracy in Pakistan.&amp;nbsp; Look, we tried dictatorship.&amp;nbsp; We gave a dictator eight years&amp;rsquo; opportunity to see if he could straighten out Pakistan and get rid of al Qaeda, and we know one thing for sure, it did not work.&amp;nbsp; So let&amp;rsquo;s not get all wet-eyed about the demise of that dictatorship.&amp;nbsp; It failed us on what we wanted most.&amp;nbsp; We now need to make this democratic experiment succeed.&amp;nbsp; It will not be easy, but it is something that is vitally important to Americans.<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">TR:</span>&amp;nbsp; Now there is a new civilian government, and this largest party, the PPP, the late Benazir Bhutto&amp;rsquo;s party, claims that it wants to try a new strategy towards dealing with the jihadi threat, using non-military means and dealing with tribal leaders.&amp;nbsp; But there are two huge problems.&amp;nbsp; One, it seems elements in the military, elements in the ISI, are trying to carry out their own policy.&amp;nbsp; It seems that the civilian government may not even be in charge of the policy.&amp;nbsp; So how do we help them on that front?&amp;nbsp; And, second problem, the civilian government itself is divided.&amp;nbsp; The PPP has a clear policy about recognizing that the jihadi threat is their problem, not just America&amp;rsquo;s.&amp;nbsp; But the other civilian party in the coalition is much less willing to take that approach.&amp;nbsp; So how do we help a civilian government that is divided within itself over that very issue to deal with the jihadi threat?&amp;nbsp; <br /><br style="font-weight: bold;" /><span style="font-weight: bold;">BR:</span> Again, these are very, very difficult problems.&amp;nbsp; Let me start with the first one.&amp;nbsp; How do we encourage the development in Pakistan of what we would consider normal, civil military relations?&amp;nbsp; In our country, if the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff is fired by the President, he goes home.&amp;nbsp; In Pakistan, he stages a coup and overthrows the government.&amp;nbsp; That is not democracy and that is not right civil-military relations.&amp;nbsp; We ought to be absolutely clear in our conversation with Pakistan&amp;rsquo;s generals and with the head of the Inter-Services Intelligence; the proper place for an army and for an intelligence service is to obey the commands of the democratically elected civilian establishment.&amp;nbsp; We ought to be very clear that any US assistance to Pakistan is conditioned on the continued survival in office of a civilian government, and the cooperation of the Pakistani military with its directives.&amp;nbsp; I would go a step further with regards to the ISI, because this problem with the ISI is not a new one.&amp;nbsp; We have been dealing with this problem for twenty years of whose side is the ISI really on.&amp;nbsp; George Tenet writes about this in his memoirs of his time.&amp;nbsp; I would ask, in a new administration, that the director of national intelligence be instructed to provide an annual secret report to the Congress on the question of, is ISI on our side or the other side, and if it is not totally on our side, then our relationship with that organization and with the Pakistani military should suffer as a consequence.&amp;nbsp; I think that is how we try to encourage strong and normal civil-military relations.&amp;nbsp; Getting Pakistani politicians to work together, that is even more difficult.&amp;nbsp; The Pakistani political leadership we have are people we know well, they have been around for a long time.&amp;nbsp; They are not Thomas Jefferson, they are not George Washington.&amp;nbsp; They are what they are.&amp;nbsp; We do not get the choice of picking Pakistan&amp;rsquo;s elected leaders, that is up to the Pakistani people.&amp;nbsp; We will have to try to work with them.&amp;nbsp; As I said, it is not going to be easy.&amp;nbsp; We are going to disagree with them, and some issues we are going to disagree on are very, very important ones.&amp;nbsp; But we ought to try to do it in the spirit of an alliance, in which we are working with a partner.<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">TR:</span>&amp;nbsp; Do you think that we can help the civilian government behind the scenes move towards talks with India that would improve that relationship?&amp;nbsp; <br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">BR:</span> I think that is one of the most important things we can do.&amp;nbsp; If you look at the itch that Pakistan has been scratching for the last thirty years that has produced this jihadist culture, it is all about India, and in the end it is all about Kashmir.&amp;nbsp; The conflict in Kashmir is what drives the Pakistani army&amp;rsquo;s pursuit of supremacy within the country.&amp;nbsp; The conflict in Kashmir is what has been at the heart of the ISI&amp;rsquo;s relationship with terrorist organizations.&amp;nbsp; There is a unique opportunity here; for the first time in many years the battlefield in Kashmir is relatively quiet.&amp;nbsp; India and Pakistan have begun negotiations about trying to improve their relationship, and they have made some important moves in that regard.&amp;nbsp; The United States ought to, very quietly and very discreetly, be encouraging that process.&amp;nbsp; We ought to be giving assurances to both New Delhi and Islamabad that if they continue down this process, the United States is right there with them and will help them in every way possible, economic assistance, diplomatic assistance, whatever it takes; it has to be done with discretion and reliability, quietly, but I think this is one of the great opportunities that the next president will have.<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">TR:</span>&amp;nbsp; Some experts and people interested in this subject have called for a much broader kind of economic aid to be given to Pakistan.&amp;nbsp; The foreign minister, Mr. Qureshi, just mentioned that he and Senator Biden have been talking about it.&amp;nbsp; Can you describe how that would work, aid that would help foster civilian institutions, and one particular issue, the issue of madrasas.&amp;nbsp; We have given aid, it seems to have gone into a hole, and religious schools called madrasas are still turning out candidates for the Taliban and even training Americans from Pakistani-American families.&amp;nbsp; How can the aid be used better?&amp;nbsp; And could it affect the schools and try to undercut the training grounds for people who go off and fight in the border areas and in Afghanistan?&amp;nbsp; <br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">BR:</span>&amp;nbsp; Let us first look at the aid we are providing.&amp;nbsp; We have provided somewhere in excess of $11 billion in aid to Pakistan since 9/11.&amp;nbsp; That is more aid than we have provided in the previous fifty years to Pakistan.&amp;nbsp; Almost all of that aid was military assistance, almost all of it is an unaccounted funding that went directly to the Pakistani army, for which we have no idea how it was spent.&amp;nbsp; Senator Biden has put forward a very interesting bill, which is now being co-sponsored by Senator Obama and a number of others on both sides of the aisle.&amp;nbsp; What he proposes is that the Congress commit to a ten-year-long program of $1.5 billion a year in economic assistance.&amp;nbsp; We would continue to provide some military aid, but $1.5 billion in economic assistance every year.&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp; And that economic assistance would be targeted on two general areas.&amp;nbsp; One, infrastructure.&amp;nbsp; Pakistan has abysmal infrastructure; it needs roads, airports, ports.&amp;nbsp; Second, on the educational system.&amp;nbsp; The reason the madrasas have grown so rapidly in Pakistan is because the public education system has collapsed in the last fifty years, largely because all the money in the Pakistani budget went to the army and their nuclear weapons program.&amp;nbsp; The idea behind the Biden Bill is to help Pakistan rebuild its public education infrastructure in a way that will undercut the need for the madrasas.&amp;nbsp; If you have good colleges and universities in Pakistan and good high schools, that is where people will send their kids, just like any other place in the world.&amp;nbsp; Right now, they do not have a choice.&amp;nbsp; The only option is the madrasas.<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">TR:</span>&amp;nbsp; So then aid should be targeted at institution-building and long range relationships outside of the military?&amp;nbsp; <br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">BR:</span>&amp;nbsp; I think a very large portion of the aid needs to go there.&amp;nbsp; My own view, though, is also that the Pakistan military needs to be reconfigured from fighting a war with India to fighting a counter-insurgency, and that is expensive, too.&amp;nbsp; But it is a different kind of expense.&amp;nbsp; Instead of providing Pakistan with sophisticated F16 aircraft, which can be used to deliver nuclear bombs on Indian cities, we should be helping them procure night vision devices and helicopters, which can be used to track down terrorists on the other borders.<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">TR:</span>&amp;nbsp; If Pakistan will not, in the near term, or cannot because the civilian government does not control the reins, go after al Qaeda and jihadis in the border areas, how can we press them?&amp;nbsp; Do you think that we should conduct military operations across the border from Afghanistan?&amp;nbsp;...]]>
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		<title>Kenneth Pollack: If Iraq slips back into civil warâ¬¦it will be far more dangerous than in Afghanistan</title>
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		<modified>2010-03-02T04:11:17Z</modified>
		<issued>2008-09-09T12:00:00Z</issued>
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		<created>2008-09-09T12:00:00Z</created>
		<summary type="text/plain"><![CDATA[This interview is with Kenneth Pollack, of the Brookings Institution, an expert on national security]]></summary>
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		<![CDATA[<img width="150" vspace="10" hspace="10" height="166" border="0" align="right" src="/Image/pollack1.jpg" alt="Kenneth Pollack" class="authorphoto" />
<p><span style="font-style: italic;">The following are excerpts from a series of interviews with some of the country&amp;rsquo;s top terrorism experts conducted by Trudy Rubin, the Worldview columnist for the </span>Philadelphia Inquirer<span style="font-style: italic;"> in conjunction with the July 2008 volume of </span>The Annals<span style="font-style: italic;"> on &amp;ldquo;Terrorism: What the Next President Will Face.&amp;rdquo;&amp;nbsp; This interview is with Kenneth Pollack, of the Brookings Institution, an expert on national security and on the Persian Gulf. He served as Director of Gulf Affairs on the National Security Council under President Clinton and his latest book is </span>A Path Out of the Desert:&amp;nbsp; A Grand Strategy for America in the Middle East.</p>
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<span style="font-weight: bold;"><strong><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />Trudy Rubin:</strong></span> Ken, I would like to start by talking a little about the impact of the Iraq war on al Qaeda in the past five years.&amp;nbsp; In early 2003, you wrote in <span style="font-style: italic;">The Annals </span>that al Qaeda was on the ropes.&amp;nbsp; So what was the impact of the invasion of Iraq on al Qaeda&amp;rsquo;s strength?<br /><br />
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<strong><a href="http://ann.sagepub.com/cgi/reprint/618/1/55">AnnalsLink: &amp;ldquo;<strong style="font-weight: normal;">Iraq's Long-Term Impact on Jihadist Terrorism</strong>&amp;rdquo;</a></strong></div>
<span style="font-weight: bold;"><strong>Kenneth Pollack:</strong></span>&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp; I think that in the early days of the reconstruction of Iraq, the problems, almost all of which were self-inflicted wounds by the United States of America, were an enormous shot in the arm for al Qaeda.&amp;nbsp; Here was the United States manifesting every one of the traits that al Qaeda had been warning the people of the Muslim world about.&amp;nbsp; An aggressive United States imposing itself on an Arab country, making war on an Arab government, no matter how illegitimate, attempting to impose its rule, what it called an occupation, in the heart of the Arab world.&amp;nbsp; There are not too many things that the United States could have done that would have been more helpful to al Qaeda, especially given how incompetently the United States handled the reconstruction of Iraq, creating an absolute mess and enormous security vacuum that created the perfect playing field for an organization like al Qaeda to move in, set up shop, begin to have a new impact on the Middle East and on Iraq in particular, begin to demonstrate to the rest of the Arab world that it remained relevant to the goals and aspirations of the people of the Arab world, generate new recruits and once again demonstrate that it could be a major player in the Middle East.[pagebreak]&amp;nbsp; <br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">TR:</span>&amp;nbsp; Let us lay out the basic question that has haunted this country for five years:&amp;nbsp; Was Iraq a central front in the war on Islamic terrorists before we arrived?&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp; <br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">KP:</span>&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp; No, it was not.&amp;nbsp; I believe that the first sentence in my book on Iraq prior to the invasion was that there was no link between 9/11 and al Qaeda.&amp;nbsp; The simple fact of the matter is that, as I wrote in that book, on the long list of Sadaam Hussein&amp;rsquo;s crimes against humanity his support for terrorism was actually very far down the list; it was rather minor.&amp;nbsp; There were some links between Iraq and various terrorist groups and there were some contacts between the government of Sadaam Hussein and al Qaeda, but they were minor, they were insignificant;&amp;nbsp; in truth they were meaningless.&amp;nbsp; If what you were trying to do was eradicate the Salafi terrorist threat symbolized by al Qaeda, Iraq was not the place to wage that war in 2002 or 2003.<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">TR:</span>&amp;nbsp; And it diverted men and material from the central front?&amp;nbsp; <br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">KP:</span>&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp; That is right.&amp;nbsp; It is one of the reasons why, although as I think many people are aware, I did believe that a war with Sadaam Hussein would be necessary, it is why I believe that doing it in 2003 was mistaken.&amp;nbsp; Because the war against al Qaeda was clearly the most important issue and that had nothing to do with Iraq.&amp;nbsp; And by shifting our focus, our troops, our intelligence and special forces assets, by diverting all of our diplomatic capital from trying to finally smother, to suffocate, the last elements of al Qaeda that were still in Afghanistan and some fleeing to Pakistan, and by shifting all of that to Iraq we allowed that critical seed, the al Qaeda leadership, to escape and allowed them to reconstitute themselves in Pakistan, and then, as I said, handed them an enormous boon, not just by invading Iraq but more importantly by so badly fouling up the reconstruction that it gave them an opportunity to rebuild their networks, rebuild their propaganda, rebuild their support in the Arab world and do it in the heart of the Arab world.<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">TR:&amp;nbsp;</span> So after we invaded, did Iraq become a new front in the war on terrorism?&amp;nbsp; And at its peak was it ever like a new Afghanistan of the 1980s?&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp; <br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">KP:&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;</span> Unfortunately it became an important front in the war on terrorism.&amp;nbsp; Again, not because it was before we went in, but because of the mistakes that we made once we did go in; by opening Iraq up, by creating chaos there, by creating a playing field for al Qaeda and, in addition, by creating the circumstances for sectarian and ethnic conflict in Iraq, which created in the Sunni Arab tribal community in Iraq a desperate desire for armed allies of any kind to help them wage the war that they believe they had to win against the Shia and the Kurds of Iraq.&amp;nbsp; And it caused them to turn to al Qaeda as natural allies.&amp;nbsp; Once that happened and al Qaeda became an important element in the Sunni resistance against what they saw as a Shia and Kurdish bid for hegemony inside of Iraq, backed by the United States, then all of a sudden al Qaeda was able to reestablish itself.&amp;nbsp; And while I would not ever say that Iraq got to the point of being a new Afghanistan, it was certainly getting close to that point.&amp;nbsp; You saw in 2005 and 2006 not just an extremely extensive al Qaeda presence inside Iraq itself, but enough of a presence that they were just beginning to send jihadists from Iraq out to other countries, with Jordan being the most important example of that.<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">TR:&amp;nbsp;</span> Talk about the foreigners who came to Iraq.&amp;nbsp; Do you have now a new cadre of trained Muslims from Arab and other countries who learn certain skills in Iraq that they did not have before?&amp;nbsp; What did they come out with?&amp;nbsp; <br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">KP:&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;</span> That is exactly right, Trudy, and I know that you have written on this topic as well so I could just as easily be interviewing you on it.&amp;nbsp; But that of course is one of the many problems that was created in Iraq when the United States invaded and then so badly messed up the reconstruction, was that it did create an insurgency and a civil war, a major element of recruiting for al Qaeda.&amp;nbsp; They were able to say, &amp;ldquo;Go to Iraq to fight both the infidels and the apostates,&amp;rdquo; the Americans and the Shia, and that war served as the Afghan war, first against the Soviets and then the Afghan civil war did, as a terrific training ground for new al Qaeda recruits.&amp;nbsp; People were motivated to go to Iraq to fight the infidel and the apostate and once there they would not only be indoctrinated into al Qaeda&amp;rsquo;s etiology, but trained in its methodology.&amp;nbsp; And they were then available to be redeployed elsewhere in the Muslim world for other missions.&amp;nbsp; And of course in that 2005-2006 period you saw al Qaeda on the cusp, beginning to export its terrorist revolution beyond Iraq as it had been doing in Afghanistan before the 2001 invasion.<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">TR:</span>&amp;nbsp; In your article in <span style="font-style: italic;">The Annals</span> you wrote about some of the specific skills that these foreign recruits learned in Iraq, like how to make IEDs.<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">KP:&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;</span> Right.&amp;nbsp; You know, the world had never seen IEDs before the invasion and reconstruction of Iraq.&amp;nbsp; That is not to say that there were not improvised explosive devices; there always were.&amp;nbsp; But the factories that were established in Iraq, the skills that were brought to bear, the innovation, the learning, by constantly coming into contact with coalition forces, by seeing coalition countermeasures, and then by developing counters to those countermeasures, the explosive skills, the IED-making skills, the ambush skills of al Qaeda as an institution grew exponentially as a result of Iraq.&amp;nbsp; And as a result you are now seeing those skills taken by al Qaeda operatives and applied elsewhere.&amp;nbsp; It is interesting that before the invasion and occupation of Iraq there were not IED problems in Afghanistan.&amp;nbsp; There are today.<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">TR:</span>&amp;nbsp; And something else that seems to have happened in Iraq, the ideology, the thinking of al Qaeda, was far more harsh than the Sunni insurgents with whom it became linked inside Iraq.&amp;nbsp; Do you think that some of that harsh, Salafi ideology has rubbed off on native Iraqis and perhaps taken roots inside the country in ways that we will see in the future?&amp;nbsp; <br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">KP:</span>&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp; I do not think that we know that, but I think that we do have to worry about it.&amp;nbsp; It is the nature of civil wars; typically communities go into civil wars with more reasonable goals than the goals that develop over the course of time.&amp;nbsp; It is the nature of fighting.&amp;nbsp; Once you start fighting, once blood has been spilled, tensions, anger, emotions rise and war aims escalate.&amp;nbsp; That is true for nations, it is true for any kind of community. In addition, of course, once the civil war in Iraq really got underway in 2005 and 2006 and the Sunni tribal community increasingly lashed itself to al Qaeda as a necessary ally in its war against the Shia, against the Kurds, and against the United States, which it saw standing behind both of those communities, increasingly people began to identify with al Qaeda.&amp;nbsp; Young men went to al Qaeda training camps, they learned not only the skills that al Qaeda brings with them, but also their philosophy, their way of thinking about the world.&amp;nbsp; And while I think that it is clear and this is part of kind of the narrative arc of al Qaeda in Iraq, that the Sunni community has largely rejected al Qaeda and largely rejected that philosophy, I do not think that we should assume that every individual has rejected it, nor do I think that we should assume that entire community itself has not at least inculcated some of its values.&amp;nbsp; They may not be quite as radical as what you would hear from Ayman al-Zawahiri or bin Laden himself, but I do think that there probably has been a change in the perceptions of the community as a whole, and that could prove problematic over time, especially if the current progress in Iraq does not last.<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">TR:</span>&amp;nbsp; In the past year, as you just referred to, the tide has turned on al Qaeda in Iraq.&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp; Can you describe briefly what happened, tell us about al Qaeda in Iraq&amp;rsquo;s overreach and how did this actually quite stunning break with Sunni insurgents come about and whether you think al Qaeda in Iraq is finished.<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">KP:&amp;nbsp;</span>&amp;nbsp; As you know well, it is an extremely complicated story and a hard one to reduce to just a few elements, and unfortunately it has been caricatured very badly in most of the work that has been done.&amp;nbsp; It is hard to know where to start, but I will start with the Sunni community itself where I think it is clear that over the course of 2006 the community, and in particular its leadership, began to develop a real distaste for al Qaeda and for a whole variety of different reasons.&amp;nbsp; In some cases, al Qaeda simply began to lord it over the traditional leadership, and something that I heard frequently from Sunni sheikhs in al-Anbar province was their point that what al Qaeda in Iraq had been doing was recruiting the dispossessed of their community, the poorest elements, those with the worst backgrounds, with the worst pedigrees.&amp;nbsp; As one sheikh put it to me, &amp;ldquo;These are boys who were not fit to shine my son&amp;rsquo;s shoes, and now they are coming back as our lords.&amp;rdquo;&amp;nbsp; That chafed against the traditional leadership.&amp;nbsp; They began to impose ridiculously harsh new social conditions on the populations, forbidding people from smoking, stoning adulterers, cutting people&amp;rsquo;s hands off for smoking or stealing, imposing their own bizarre extreme version of sharia law on an Iraqi community which, truth to tell, had developed a much more worldly, sophisticated, even laissez-faire attitude over the course of time and was not interested or used to this kind of a set of social codes, and began to chafe against it and rebel against it.&amp;nbsp; In addition, you had changes inside of Iraq, changes within the political structure, and a new tone from the United States.&amp;nbsp; At the political level this started even before the military surge with Ambassador Zalmay Khalilzad, who attempted to reach out to the Sunni tribes in a way that previous American political masters had not in the past.&amp;nbsp; Zalmay Khalilzad made a very concerted effort to bring the tribal leadership on board, to convince them that the United States was going to try to give them an equal share in governance in Iraq and was going to protect their political prerogatives and make sure they got their fair share of Iraq&amp;rsquo;s oil wealth, that was an important message.&amp;nbsp; Later, of course, you had the adoption of the surge strategy and General Petraeus&amp;rsquo; emergence in Iraq.&amp;nbsp; Even before that, though, the Marines, who were the ones responsible for al-Anbar province, they had already begun to implement a strategy of counterinsurgency warfare that focused on population protection, that was not antagonistic to the Sunni community but sought to actually assist them and protect them.&amp;nbsp; And as a result when the Sunni tribal sheikhs began to get fed up with al Qaeda, they were able in their own minds to see a way out of their problems that included support from the Americans.&amp;nbsp; They knew that they would have to turn on al Qaeda, that that would be a nasty fight, and because of what they had been seeing from the Americans, both at the political and the military level, they felt confident of what they would get from the Americans and that the support that they would get from the Americans would be exactly what they needed.&amp;nbsp; And so it was this synergy between the unhappiness with what these new elements, these al Qaeda elements, had brought into their society, which they did not care for, and the sense that the Americans were finally providing them with a realistic way out of their problems that combined to cause the Sunni sheikhs to begin to turn against al Qaeda in what has now been called the Sahawah, the Anbar Awakening.<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">TR:&amp;nbsp;</span> Can we say then that al Qaeda in Iraq is finished or defeated?&amp;nbsp; Can we say that it no longer presents the threat it once seemed to, that it could actually take over areas of Iraqi territory and from those bases send people out to threaten other regimes in the region?&amp;nbsp; <br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">KP:&amp;nbsp;</span>&amp;nbsp; It is a tough question, as you know, and it is probably the $64,000 question out there.&amp;nbsp; I would never suggest that al Qaeda is defeated in Iraq.&amp;nbsp; Al Qaeda is still there, they can still be a lethal nuisance.&amp;nbsp; They can still kill people, they can still cause major disruptions, even at their current level.&amp;nbsp; That said, they have suffered some very major defeats all across Iraq and they are simply not the force that they once were.&amp;nbsp; They no longer constitute a viable insurgency that is capable of swaying major political decisions in the country, let alone toppling the government, not at this moment.&amp;nbsp; They can still kill people, they are still out there as a force, but they have been greatly reduced in what they are able to do.&amp;nbsp; The problem is, of course, that Iraq itself is still a work in progress and there are enormous problems still in Iraq.&amp;nbsp; And while on the one hand I hail the progress that has been made, I think that it is tremendous, I think that it is extremely important, I also always try to caution people against the overconfidence which now seems to be creeping in.&amp;nbsp; The way I like to describe it is that Iraq is an extremely complex situation; in 2003 we created a set of first-order problems and insurgency, a civil war, a failed state that were sucking Iraq into all-out chaos.&amp;nbsp; The surge pretty effectively has dealt with those three first-order problems.&amp;nbsp; What we are now seeing crop up are a series of second- and third- and fourth-order problems.&amp;nbsp; Now, they are not as deadly as the first-order problems, but they are not benign either.&amp;nbsp; And in particular, second-order problems, the immaturity of the Iraqi political system, the fact that you now do have a very powerful military in a system with very weak institutions, the kind of situation that has led to coups elsewhere in the Middle East.&amp;nbsp; The fact that you now have these issues with the Sons of Iraq, Sunni members, former insurgents who are very angry about their treatment at the hands of the government, the return of four million refugees to their homes, there is problem after problem after problem.&amp;nbsp; These could, over time, if left untreated, recombine to recreate very severe problems inside Iraq.&amp;nbsp; And the fact is, of course, that al Qaeda has been greatly reduced but it is not dead.&amp;nbsp; It is down but it is not out.&amp;nbsp; And if those conditions begin to reemerge, because these second and third-order problems are allowed to fester and grow back into first-order problems, al Qaeda could reemerge very quickly.<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">TR:</span>&amp;nbsp; Let me touch on one of those problems that you mentioned, the second-order problems.&amp;nbsp; A key, as you said, to getting rid of al Qaeda was that Sunni leadership, especially tribal leadership, decided to turn against them with the help of the Americans because they had overreached, and the vehicle for that was the Sons of Iraq, basically Sunni militias that the Americans are still paying.&amp;nbsp; And as you know the whole idea was that these 100,000 young men who are on the U.S. payroll as Sons of Iraq in different parts of the country would eventually be transitioned over to the Iraqi government payroll and either go into the security forces or have some kind of work, which U.S. embassy officials have described as the Civilian Conservation Corps-type of jobs.&amp;nbsp; Now Prime Minister Maliki is balking at this; only a small percentage has been absorbed.&amp;nbsp; If these Sons of Iraq are not absorbed into some kind of government payroll or jobs are not created, could you see a situation where they as nascent militias could actually turn to fighting against the government?&amp;nbsp; Or could you see a situation where the tribal leaders would ever turn back to supporting al Qaeda because they felt that the Sunni-led government was never going to give them a piece of the action?&amp;nbsp; <br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">KP:&amp;nbsp;</span>&amp;nbsp; Yes, this is an extremely important issue, and it is one that I think that the U.S. government is finally focused on, but I do not think that they have yet come up with the right answer for.&amp;nbsp; I think that it is clear that the Maliki government is uninterested in bringing the Sons of Iraq into the government, into the security services the way that the SOIs, the Sons of Iraq, had been promised.&amp;nbsp; I think that that is potentially a very serious problem, for both of the reasons that you outlined.&amp;nbsp; The first, and in some ways the more obvious but probably the much less important, is that you could just get individual Sons of Iraq or groups of Sons of Iraq basically saying to heck with this, if they are not going to give us jobs in the police or the army, we are going to go back to fighting.&amp;nbsp; That is possible, but it strikes me as unlikely and we need to always understand that in the tribal society of Iraq these individuals are constrained in their behavior and very few will simply go off and act on their own, that there are always societal forces that act on them and shape them, and it would be unlikely that large numbers of them took that route.&amp;nbsp; I think the second issue that you raised is actually the far more problematic one, which is what signal does it send to the tribal community as a whole and what course does it set them off on.<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">TR:</span>&amp;nbsp; The Sunni tribal community?&amp;nbsp; <br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">KP:</span>&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp; Correct, the Sunni tribal community.&amp;nbsp; I think that it is clear that the Sunni tribal community sees the Sons of Iraq issue as a bellwether for how they are going to be treated.&amp;nbsp; What we were just talking about before, that one of the critical elements in the Sahawah, in the decision of the tribal leadership to turn on al Qaeda, was their sense that they were going to have a proper place in the new Iraq, that they were going to get a real role in governance, that they were going to get their fair share of oil revenues, that they would get control of their own provinces and have an opportunity to participate in an Iraqi government and that the United States was going to make sure that that happened.&amp;nbsp; The problem is, and I think that the tribal community, in fact I have heard this from a number of different Iraqi friends, is looking at what is going on with the SOIs as the acid test of that, and if the government excludes the SOIs, reneges on their promise as they see it to the SOIs, to the Sons of Iraq, and if the United States is unable or unwilling to step in and guarantee the terms of that agreement, I think that it is going to send a very powerful and very negative signal to the entire Sunni tribal community that they are not going to be accepted back into the fold, they are not going to get that role in Iraq&amp;rsquo;s governance that they were promised, and that the United States is either unable or unwilling to guarantee and to live up to the terms of the agreement.&amp;nbsp; Now, if you are the Sunni tribal community that leaves you in a very awkward situation.&amp;nbsp; I think that they have mostly decided that the insurgency was not very rewarding for their community and so I do not think that they necessarily want to go back down that path.&amp;nbsp; But if they are left no alternative, it is going to cause a great deal of confusion and consternation and we simply do not know where they are going to wind up.&amp;nbsp; My guess is in the short term what you would see is a variety of other acts of civil disobedience and pushback by the Sunni community against the Shia, against the Kurds, as a way of saying,&amp;nbsp; &amp;ldquo;Hey, if you guys do not live up to the promises that you made to us, well we can find ways to make life hard for you, as well.&amp;rdquo;&amp;nbsp; And especially if this comes in a context where the United States is de-escalating, is pulling its troops out, where the U.S.&amp;rsquo;s leverage is waning.&amp;nbsp; Increasingly over time that kind of tension, that kind of political fighting among the different factions could eventually escalate back to combat.&amp;nbsp; Again, I think that the progress that we have made is such that I would not expect a return to large-scale warfare, the way that we saw in 2006, for some time, but I do not think that it is out of the question at all.&amp;nbsp; And if that happens, I think the Sunni community will, just as they did in 2004, 2005, 2006, be looking for any allies that they can get.&amp;nbsp; And I think that a lot of these sheikhs may basically decide, &amp;ldquo;You know what, we do not like al Qaeda and this time around we are going to have a different set of ground rules with al Qaeda but we need allies.&amp;rdquo;&amp;nbsp; And so if it comes to renewed fighting among Iraq&amp;rsquo;s factions, I do think that you could see the resurgence of al Qaeda in Iraq even though the Sunni tribal community would likely try to circumscribe their ability to act and to lord it over their own community in ways that they did not in the past.<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">TR:</span>&amp;nbsp; A couple of questions about ways in which this might be avoided; let me just try to set the stage here.&amp;nbsp; Do you think it is possible that if elections are finally held for provincial governments you could have a situation where Sunnis would be able to be empowered at a local level, and if the central government were wise enough and funneled money their way that that might overcome some of the angst at the unfriendly way that the Sons of Iraq have been treated?&amp;nbsp; <br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">KP:</span>&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp; Yes, again I think this is another superb point, Trudy.&amp;nbsp; The upcoming elections in Iraq, both the provincial and the national, are absolutely critical to Iraq&amp;rsquo;s political future.&amp;nbsp; They are the first elections in Iraq that might actually produce progress in Iraq rather than make the situation worse, which was always the case in previous elections in Iraq since the invasion.&amp;nbsp; There is no question that the Sunni community is absolutely determined to regain control of the political governance of its own provinces through the provincial elections, and they also expect that the central government will provide them with a fair share of Iraq&amp;rsquo;s resources so that they can live their lives and improve the lives of their people.&amp;nbsp; That is one reason why they are very much looking forward to the provincial elections, it is why the provincial elections have to come off, and it is why the provincial elections are likely to produce some very important benefits, almost regardless of anything else that happens.&amp;nbsp; As long as that happens, as long as the Sunni community regains control of its own political mechanisms in its own provinces, that in and of itself will be a plus.&amp;nbsp; For that reason, in some ways the provincial elections can only be a negative.&amp;nbsp; If they do not go well, if they are not exactly what the Sunni community expects, and what the Sunni community expects is most likely going to be what happens, but if for some reason they are not because the central government steps in and starts to bugger the elections or refuses to provide the resources after the elections, that could be very problematic.&amp;nbsp; Because you will now likely have a Sunni leadership that is fully in control of its provinces and very angry at a Shia leadership in the capital that is preventing them from getting the resources, getting the kind of lives that they want and, again, reneging on this promise.<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">TR:</span>&amp;nbsp; How does all this fit into the question of can we leave now, or when can we leave?&amp;nbsp; You have written after your recent trip that a swift U.S. exit might exacerbate the problems in a county that is still fragile. So what is your take on what a quick withdrawal of combat troops might lead to?<br /><br style="font-weight: bold;" /><span style="font-weight: bold;">KP:&amp;nbsp;</span>&amp;nbsp; I think that the problem that we are having in the United States today is that there is now such a strong perception of how much progress has been made in Iraq, and that is correct, there has been tremendous progress, that unfortunately&amp;nbsp; I think people are starting to overreact, assuming that we can now basically walk away from the problem of Iraq because we have pretty much solved it, and that there are now other more important problems that beckon for America&amp;rsquo;s resources, soldiers, and attention.&amp;nbsp; What I think that that misunderstands really is the complexity of the remaining problems in Iraq, and the fact that the progress, while very important and potentially sustainable, is not self-sustaining.&amp;nbsp; It is built upon a whole series of different political compromises and agreements that have at their foundation the presence of the United States to guarantee that various groups inside the country are no longer able to use violence to advance their political agenda, which unfortunately was not the case before the surge, before 2006, and which led to the civil war in Iraq.&amp;nbsp; As I said, the first-order problems are well on their way to being taken care of by the surge.&amp;nbsp; But the second, third, fourth-order problems are cropping up.&amp;nbsp; That is going to require a continuing, very large American presence in Iraq for some years.&amp;nbsp; It is also, however, going to require us to shift our focus.&amp;nbsp; And that is something that I have my concerns that the administration is not yet focusing on, that they are so pleased with how well things have gone in terms of dealing with the civil war and the insurgency and the failed state that they are not shifting their focus and shifting the attention of our troops and our resources in Iraq over to deal with things like the immaturity of the Iraqi political system, the need to repatriate four million refugees to their homes, the need to deal with situations like Kirkuk and the Sons of Iraq, all of which could easily re-ignite the civil war.&amp;nbsp; And as a result you are going to need to have that U.S. presence there.&amp;nbsp; We need to be there as a buffer between the warring groups, we need to be there to reassure different groups that others cannot attack them.&amp;nbsp; We need to be there to broker deals among these different factions who are having such tremendous difficulty brokering those deals themselves.&amp;nbsp; In many ways these are the new roles that the U.S. has got to take on in Iraq and which we have been somewhat loathe, somewhat reluctant to do so.&amp;nbsp; And unfortunately all of that is going to require a very ...]]>
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	<entry>
		<title>The Brain Who Mistook a Joke for a Fact</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="http://blog.aapss.org/index.cfm?CommentID=66" />
		<modified>2010-03-02T04:11:17Z</modified>
		<issued>2008-07-23T12:03:24Z</issued>
 		<id>tag:blog.aapss.org,2010:66</id> 
		<created>2008-07-23T12:03:24Z</created>
		<summary type="text/plain"><![CDATA[By now you've seen it, as have millions of Americans: last week's cover of The New Yorker. The infam]]></summary>
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			<name>AAPSS Blog</name>
			<url>http://blog.aapss.org/</url>
			<email>jodland@sas.upenn.edu</email>
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            <td> <img width="120" height="169" align="left" src="/Image/obamanewyorker-crop.jpg" alt="New Yorker cover" class="authorphoto" /></td>
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<p>By now you&amp;rsquo;ve seen it, as have millions of Americans: last week&amp;rsquo;s cover of <em>The New Yorker</em>. The infamous illustration features false views of Barack Obama taken by his fiercest opponents. Speaking on the <em>Charlie Rose</em> show, the editor of <em>The New Yorker</em>, David Remnick, has pointed out that the magazine's liberal leanings are well-known. He wonders: can't people take a joke? The short answer is that we would, but our brains won&amp;rsquo;t let us.<br /></p>
<p>The brain does not save information permanently, as do computer drives and printed pages. After our brains store a fact, the information does not rest. Instead, as a piece of information is recalled, it may be &amp;ldquo;written&amp;rdquo; down again as part of the process of strengthening it. Along the way, the fact is gradually separated from the context in which it was originally learned. The phenomenon, known as <a href="http://synapse.princeton.edu/~sam/hovland_weiss_source-credibility-Public-Opinion-Quarterly-1951-52.pdf" target="new">source amnesia</a>, allows us to have semantic knowledge, a type of memory in which we recall a fact (i.e. &amp;ldquo;at a red light, stop&amp;rdquo;) without the bother of recalling exactly when we learned it. <br /></p>
<p>Most of the time this trick is useful. If we had to remember where we learned that red meant stop, we wouldn&amp;rsquo;t drive very safely. But the same trick can lead people to forget whether a statement is even true. A false statement from a noncredible source that is at first not believed can gain credibility during the months it takes to reprocess memories from short-term to longer-term storage. As the source is forgotten, the message and its implications gain strength. So any intended satire in the magazine cover may eventually be forgotten, leaving people to recall vaguely that Barack Obama is somehow un-American.<br /></p>
<p>Another brain trick compounds the false memory problem. Daniel Gilbert and his colleagues <a href="http://www.wjh.harvard.edu/~dtg/Gilbert%20et%20al%20(EVERYTHING%20YOU%20READ).pdf" target="new">have shown</a> that if people aren't given enough time to think, they tend to automatically accept a statement as being true. Visual information is processed particularly rapidly. And what's more immediate than a caricature?</p>
<p>Psychologists have suggested that <a href="http://synapse.princeton.edu/~sam/heath_sternberg2001_JPSP.pdf" target="new">legends propagate</a> by striking an emotional chord. In the same way, ideas can spread by emotional selection, rather than by their factual merits, encouraging the persistence of falsehoods. Indeed, unscrupulous campaign strategists know that if their message is <a href="http://synapse.princeton.edu/~sam/heath_sternberg2001_JPSP.pdf" target="new">initially memorable</a>, its impression will persist long after it is debunked. One emotionally-laden false belief about Senator John McCain dates back to the 2000 Presidential primary campaign. He did well until the South Carolina primary, at which time rumors surfaced about a mixed-race child that he had allegedly fathered. Apparently, this did not play well with Southern voters. Shortly thereafter, his candidacy faltered. As <a href="http://synapse.princeton.edu/~sam/heath_sternberg2001_jpersonalityandsocialpsych.pdf" target="new">one study</a> has shown, ideas have special staying power if they evoke a feeling of disgust.</p>
<p>Because of these tricks your brain plays on you, journalists can paradoxically make misinformation stick by repeating a falsehood even as they debunk it. In covering the controversy that was evoked over the New Yorker cover, virtually every major TV journalist repeated the stereotyped charges against the candidate&amp;mdash;many citing polling data on how many Americans believe them&amp;mdash;before noting that the beliefs were false. An especially bad variant is the common habit of replaying parts of an ad that they are about to show is false. In television, which above all else is a visual medium, image can easily trump verbal content.<br /></p>
<p>If journalists are to avoid adding to the public&amp;rsquo;s misinformation, they need to find other strategies, such as offering an equally competing, true storyline. For instance, rather than repeating the false belief then denying that Obama is a Muslim, a less misleading approach would be to report on the candidate&amp;rsquo;s discovery of Christianity after a secular youth. <br /></p>
<p>In other words, when journalists write their stories, they should spend less time worrying about presenting both sides of a story when one side is false - and more time considering the quirky ways that brains process the disagreement. <br /></p>
<p>&amp;nbsp;</p>
<div style="text-align: center;"><span style="font-style: italic;">Sam Wang, Ph.D., is associate professor of neuroscience and molecular biology at Princeton University. He is co-author of the book <a href="http://www.welcometoyourbrain.com/" target="new"><em>Welcome to Your Brain: Why You Lose Your Car Keys but Never Forget How to Drive and Other Puzzles of Everyday Life</em></a>.</span></div>
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